Reframing Temple Covenants for a Happier Life with Melinda Wheelwright Brown

Will Humphreys with author and temple educator Melinda Wheelwright Brown to discuss her powerful book, An Endowment of Love: Embracing Christ’s Covenant Way of Living and Loving. This episode is a must-listen for anyone preparing for the temple or seeking a deeper, more expansive understanding of the covenants we make.

Melinda shares the key mental shifts that can transform the way we view the temple. Learn why we should think of the core covenants, obedience, sacrifice, the Gospel of Jesus Christ, chastity, and consecration, not as rigid laws, but as eternal principles of love that bless every relationship in our lives. Discover why the endowment is a "starting point, not a finish line," and how understanding God’s love as preceding everything we do is fundamental to our covenant path.

Key Takeaways:

• Reframing the Five Laws: Learn to view laws like obedience and sacrifice as principles of loyalty, trust, commitment, and investment in every relationship.
• Temple Anxiety: Melinda offers profound insights to relieve the pressure of the first visit, emphasizing that the core message is God’s love and your belonging.
• Thinking Bigger: Discover the expansive nature of the law of chastity as reverence for life and the law of consecration as a stewardship mindset—a partnership with Christ to build Zion.

Christ's Covenant Way of Living and Loving

Melinda re-frames the five temple covenants, offering a "bigger, more expansive idea" that helps us apply them instantly to our lives outside the temple doors: DOWNLOAD WORKSHEET HERE.

This insightful discussion will help you fine-tune your vision to see all things more divinely and apply the power of the temple instantly to your daily life.

Temple Bound is in Kenya!

We’ve officially arrived! From November 2nd to 9th, we’re partnering with a local group to help members of the Church attend the temple for the very first time.

Here’s how you can be part of this incredible experience:

• Follow the Journey: Tune in to our daily podcast episodes as we share stories and updates straight from Kenya. Follow us on all social media platforms to see the impact unfold in real time.
•  Support the Mission:We’re raising funds for essential medical supplies, food, and shelter for a local orphanage. Every donation makes a direct difference here on the ground. 

 Book Giveaway Alert!

We're giving away copies of An Endowment of Love by Melinda Wheelwright Brown! Want to win and dive deeper into these concepts?

How to Enter:

1. Listen to this episode of Temple Bound.
2. Answer this question (found within the episode discussion): What two basic premises does Melinda say can relieve the pressure of not knowing what's ahead in the temple?
3. Go and follow our Instagram page (@templeboundpodcast).
4. Find the giveaway post and comment your answer and tag two friends who would love this book!

Giveaway closes November 10, 2025. Winners will be notified via Instagram DM.

Transcript

Kenya Trip And How To Join

SPEAKER_02 0:05

Temple Bound is going to Africa, and we want you to come with us. November 2nd through the 9th, we have been asked to go to Kenya to help a local group of members of the church go to the temple for the first time. And not only are we looking to help them get to the temple, but we're helping raise money for medical supplies, food, and even some shelter for a local orphanage. So if you'd like to join us, here's how you can do that. Number one, follow us on social media. If you'd like to be a part of it remotely, you can check us out on a daily-day basis. We're doing podcast episodes while we're over there. Secondly, you can donate. We're gonna have a GoFundMe link in the show notes of these episodes over the next two months. Or you can literally come with us. We have a limited number of seats, and we'd love for you to come join us in this effort of sharing this great good with members of the church overseas. So if you'd like to learn more, please reach out and we'd love to have you. Look at I'm holding it sideways on screen. It's this really small book, but very powerful. It's meant to be an easy read for people who are preparing to go to the temple for the first time, or just someone who wants to think of the temple and the covenants we make from a bigger perspective. We spend the first half of the discussion really highlighting some of these key mental shifts and how to perceive the covenants, like changing the word law to love and some really cool concepts. But then the second half, it really gets powerful as Mindy starts to share many of her takeaways that she shares in the book, but just some of the highlights. And I had some personal revelation that I know you will as well. So thank you as always for taking time out of your busy day to join us here on Temple Bound to help expand our understanding and love of the Temple and the Savior. Enjoy the show. Mindy, I am so excited to have you on the show. My wife and I have been looking forward to diving into your book, this amazing book called An Endowment of Love, um, and get to know more about you as a human being. So welcome to the show, first of all.

SPEAKER_00 2:28

Thanks. I'm very happy to be here. Good to meet you.

From Genesis To Temple Teaching

SPEAKER_02 2:31

Yeah, such a pleasure for us. Like I said, we were excited about this for months. This book is such a beautiful and really like digestible book. What can I ask, first of all, what inspired you to write this book?

Divinity School And Bigger Thinking

SPEAKER_00 2:44

Well, my first book was um uh called Eve and Adam, Discovering the Beautiful Balance. And that was really a deep dive into the garden story of Genesis, which um I'm sure most of your listeners are aware is a really key piece of the presentation of the endowment. And for me, I came at that from a point of having a lot of questions about women's issues uh in the church and just in history and in life. Um and then obviously it was a really uh tightly connected topic to temple study and temple worship and um temple research, all these things. So that really opened the door wide for me. And then when that book came out, uh just as the Lord works in mysterious ways, I was um called to be a teacher of a temple class, which I've been doing for the last five years. That's that's kind of ended just fairly recently because my time was up and it's somebody else's turn, is the way callings go in the church. Um but that was uh in a young adult ward on BYU campus. And so I was able to work with literally a thousand plus students over that time and just really digging into what their questions are and challenges and and anxieties and fears and favorite things, um, uh all the things just gave me a I I felt like a fairly unique perspective on how to present it in a way that is digestible and that has broad application from the moment we walk out the door of the temple. And that was really an important piece of it to me. Uh, I hadn't felt like I had been taught in that regard. And I thought that would have helped me, that would have been a helpful framework for the last 35 years of my life if I really saw it that way. And so I've I spent those five years basically just finding better and better and better ways to describe it and teach it and talk about it. And of course, in that time, I was doing tons and tons of reading and research, and I actually went uh and uh received a master's degree from Duke Divinity School in that interim as well. So, I mean, I was really deep into sacred ritual and worship and just all things divine, really.

SPEAKER_02 5:18

So it was powerful. So there's there was an inspiration to help communicate to a younger audience the power of of what we receive in the temple and doing it in a clear way. Is that what you're saying? Yep, definitely. So so tell me about your degree from Duke. That's very interesting. How did that serve you in in in your in your research and exploration on how to get information to receive the inspiration to serve these wonderful young men and women?

SPEAKER_00 5:47

Yeah, yeah. Well, my degree is in Christian practice, it's a master's of art in Christian practice. And for one thing, it helped me understand better all of our Christian siblings and even um Abrahamic religious siblings. I mean, everything. We learned so much there and studied so much about different ancient religions, um, religious traditions, different styles of worship, and uh different sacred rituals through really the ages. Um, I approached it because they had a program specifically focused on theology and the arts. And I love the sacred symbolism, and I knew from travel and study and and all those things how significant that symbolism is in, say, cathedrals and churches around the world, and how many similarities there really are there. And that was really intriguing to me. So that's what I was diving into when I first got there, and then as it turned out, I kind of did a double focus with the second part being on Christian education, which turned out to be just enormously helpful in understanding better how to lead really discussions as opposed to lecturing about sacred things and um spiritual feelings and that sort of thing. And so it it just in every way it opened my eyes to newer, bigger, more expansive ideas. And one of my key beliefs is that the temple is an invitation to think bigger and to think more expansively. And that's what this book, An Endowment of Love, really tries to draw out is how to think bigger about these things. And so for me, divinity school was a perfect way to sort of prime my brain towards thinking that direction and really leaning into it in ways that maybe in our tradition we don't always use that language. Um, but it's it's just because we speak different languages, and and I kind of had an intensive language class throughout Divinity School to learn all these other languages that could help me speak ours better, I think.

Bilingual: Law And Love

SPEAKER_02 8:09

So that's wonderful because there is so much that that that has influenced our language is through the global, you know, religious world. So this is a way of helping connect those dots. And it's interesting that you mentioned language, because one of the concepts in this book is called being bilingual and learning the temple language. Do you mind going into that concept a little bit since you bring up that piece of it?

Belonging And First-Temple Anxiety

SPEAKER_00 8:31

Sure. Sure. Well, by by the bilingual piece, uh, I'm really referring there to the language of law and the language of love, and how crucial it is to recognize these laws that we talk about in the temple. So the ones I'm referring to very specifically are sort of the five core covenants of the endowment. So it's the law of obedience, the law of sacrifice, the law of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the law of chastity, and the law of consecration. And I think sometimes, especially with our um younger minds, we we hear law and we think legal um uh rules, good and bad, judges, that sort of a thing. And really the kind of laws these are are more like eternal laws, which are I think we could draw some similarities to natural laws. So, say the law of gravity. So that's such an easy example because we're all very familiar with the law of gravity. Whether we choose to obey that law or not really does not matter. It's it is working on us. It's how we function on planet Earth, is with the help of gravity. And in that regard, if we can reframe these five laws of the endowment as the way things work, we can actually learn to work with them as opposed to fighting against them. I mean, it's it's a hopeless fight if we're trying to fight against the way things work, say with gravity or with lots of other scientific, natural laws. But the Lord's divine and eternal laws are very similar in that they are in fact the way that relationships thrive and are happy and are eternal, all of these things. And so I think there's this important link between reframing the way we're hearing these legal words when we're in the temple to seeing them as the language of love. And when we can make that change, all of a sudden it looks really different to us. So we could actually reframe those laws as the love of obedience or the love of sacrifice, the love of the gospel of Jesus Christ. And so when we see that a little differently, all of a sudden it looks really different. And it makes a very easy step to seeing how when we walk out the door of the temple, we can take our love of obedience and bless every relationship we have outside of its doors. It's not just about our relationship with the Savior, though, of course, that's a really crucial piece of it, and with our heavenly parents and the Holy Ghost, of course, but everyone we come in contact with, we will actually have richer, deeper, happier relationships when we're applying these eternal principles of loving covenant relationships to those uh interactions. And I think that's a really huge idea. That that makes all the effort of getting to the temple and spending time there, practicing these things in the temple and then walking back out again and putting them to immediate use feels so um significant and powerful instantly, not just later, not in some distant eternity, but today. And I think that's a big deal. And I think young people are really practical thinkers that way and would like to understand how will this help me today? And I think that's the answer.

SPEAKER_02 12:15

Yeah, beginning with that why, it's so um powerful to me to think about that shift in language from law to love. And that's what you meant in the book about you know bilingual. Because, you know, we read in the New Testament how God is love, and any law of God is a God is a law of love. And so when we look at reframing it in that way, it goes to what you were saying at the beginning about the temple being an invitation just to think bigger. And so that more expansive thinking, uh there's a theme that goes through the entire book about how that expansive thinking really draws us back more to a familial connection and relationship to our Heavenly Father and how the temple is more like we're coming home. Yes, and the peace and and those types of elements.

SPEAKER_01 12:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:59

So I'm I'm wondering, you know, you mentioned earlier how working with the youth and and their anxieties and this concept of coming home and the peace was that important to you for them to understand that in order to kind of counter these feelings that they go through.

SPEAKER_00 13:14

Yeah, yeah, I think it really is very important because the temple is so sacred, and we don't share everything uh that goes on there outside of the temple. Um, we do talk a lot more about it now than we used to. We've been invited by our church leaders to do that, um and being cautious that, you know, and aware that we're not sharing those sacred things that we've covenanted and promised not to share. Um but I think the the understanding, like knowing there are gonna be some things there that you can't anticipate on your first visit because we don't talk about it is really unnerving for a lot of people. Um young people like to know what they're getting into, and I really respect that about them. Um, I think one one thing that I have heard, oh, at least a hundred times, that never in a million years would I have said 35 years ago when I was 19 and going to receive my endowment. I hear these young adults saying, Well, it would be a breach of my integrity to not know what I'm about to covenant.

SPEAKER_01 14:28

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 14:29

And right, uh I mean, that's big language, a breach of their integrity, and they're right.

SPEAKER_02 14:35

And they're not wrong, and that's a completely truthful, high integrity thing, mature thing to say.

A Starting Point Not A Finish Line

SPEAKER_00 14:41

Yes, it's a very mature thing to say, and and it really illustrates just how much they care, they want to do this right. So it is unnerving to think, well, I don't know exactly what's gonna happen. What if I don't understand it? What if I don't get it? Um, and I think one of the things that older, mature, more mature members of the church and and longtime temple goers understand is none of us understand and get it perfectly because it's really designed to give us room to keep learning for a lifetime and beyond, honestly. Right uh into the into the distant eternities. There's so much to be gleaned from this and so many layers of understanding and meaning that we can draw from it. So so a perfect understanding isn't actually the goal of going, especially at the beginning. And because of that, if we feel like a really clear understanding that the two basic premises are love and belonging, that God loves you full stop. That's that's an absolute given. So this is a loving place, this is the house of a loving God and that you belong there, that he's thrilled that you want to visit him there, absolutely thrilled that you're there. And those two things can really relieve some of that pressure of not knowing then what's ahead and what's coming. Um and then uh just a general sense of phrase that I I use again and again, and I think it's really valuable in um giving us a healthy perspective with temple experiences, is that it's a starting point, not a finish line. Uh, it doesn't, it's not a one time and it's this grand ta-da! You did it, you're right, you're there, right? It's not that at all. It's much more akin to a college orientation weekend or something, where you spend those first couple of days there knowing you're gonna be nervous and you don't know your way around yet, and you don't have a bunch of friends yet there, but also confident that that's what college is all about, and you will learn your way around and you will make friends there, and you will feel more and more comfortable the more time you spend there. But you just have to kind of jump in, you you just gotta go for it, right? And so I I think it's it's helpful to think of it too, in terms of being ready to make that big step, maybe even less so using the term prepared that we often talk about. I think when we think of preparedness, I found a lot of young adults would say that kind of feels like Boy Scout talk, like we're ready, we've got everything we need, we know exactly what we do. Yeah, like we know precisely what to do. If this happens, we do this, if this happens, we do that. Going to the temple in your first few times, it's not Boy Scout stuff quite like that. It's more that you're ready to take this step, like you're ready to go to college because you're thrilled to learn more and want to take your knowledge base and understanding to the next level, right? And so, in that sense, really reminding yourself frequently, it's a starting point, not a finish line. And honestly, we could all remind ourselves that every single day. That's life, right?

SPEAKER_02 18:21

Yes, I think there's an invalidation that occurs for us when we go and we're not that's why President Nelson said that we should go more often, not less when we don't feel like it, because a lot of times those feelings come from a place, well, the adversary for one, but this other thing of judging a distance like you're supposed to get more than what you get out of it. And and it's really so as you're preparing the youth, I love that reframing of saying God loves you full stop, and and one of the things that you say a phrase that I I picked out of the book was um for them to develop the unshakable assurance of belonging, which is so powerful to think about that in today's world where the biggest problem is a lack of belonging. So as you're preparing, you know, the young men and women in in your world, and you've done that, so that reframing helps. Do you also go through the ordinances? Yes. Like do you walk through the different those yeah, the five, sorry, the five covenants?

SPEAKER_00 19:16

Yes, yes, we do. We we spend a lot of time talking about those and seeing how they are eternal principles of loving covenant relationships. Um, also looking closely at how we see Christ demonstrating those in his mortal ministry as well. You know, the the four gospels of the New Testament are just packed with examples of his being obedient, of his sacrificing, of his loving others and loving his father's way, um, all these things. So I think we have great examples there that that really can help us recognize these are Christ's way of living and loving. And therefore we we hope that we're all embracing them and making them our way of living and loving as well.

SPEAKER_02 20:05

Yes, and in your chapter, Building on the Rock, you know, the idea that um as we focus on Christ, especially in our first time, yes, um, that makes a big shift and helps people know what to focus on to help them, you know, get used to that first experience. Yeah. Um, how how does focusing on Christ for people going through the temple for the first time, how does that help them in their first experience?

SPEAKER_00 20:29

Well, I think he's absolutely at the heart of it all. So so if every symbol or new uh metaphor, if you will, that's being presented there, if you can try to just expand your mind to where you see either Christ's connection in this, you know, a lot of it because it's it's uh told sort of through the perspective of Eve and Adam, and inviting us to step into those shoes, if you will, um and recognizing that we're all having this a very similar mortal experience. We've chosen to be here and experience this earth life in order to learn more, to gain a body, to be able to learn and grow and progress and become more like our Savior. Um when we recognize that we're all on that same goal and trajectory, then we can ask, well, how's Christ interacting with them? How's deity uh interacting and helping? How is is uh this partnership or this divine collaboration, if you will, how is this playing out on on what I'm seeing in the temple on the screen? Of course, a lot of it is done by video now. Um and how can I see that same thing happen in my life? How do I bring this out with me and see that Christ is right there doing this with me? He's there supporting me. Um, he's given me many, many precious gifts to help me have the courage and strength to do this as long as I'm really holding tightly to his hand uh to do that. And so I think when we see it that way, it's so helpful. And of course, in recent years, we've added a lot more images of Christ in the film of the temple in order to help make it clearer, clearer how it really is all about him. I think um in previous years and and in the years, you know, back many decades, it was it it it required some really deep um understanding of symbols and metaphor, and and it like gave you a lot of room to really think and make these connections, and it might take a while for you to get there. And uh, I think because the Lord is hastening his work, the the prophets and apostles have felt to make it a little bit more clear-cut of how he really is there through all of it. So I think that's really helpful.

SPEAKER_02 23:14

You know, you've mentioned uh three times in various things that you've said, indicating the importance of how knowing what when you go to the temple, how it actually helps you afterwards.

SPEAKER_01 23:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:27

You were talking about Christ and and how you when you leave the temple, how he'll actually be there to help you from that point and how that that helps. Um, you know, as you've mentioned that repeatedly, I just have to ask a little bit more about that. When you're talking about when we go to the temple, what would our what would you want our listeners to know about that one more time? When they go to the temple, what is what is it about leaving the temple, descending from the mountain that they should expect or look for in terms of help and support for having gone?

Seeing Differently After The Temple

SPEAKER_00 23:52

Well, I think it when we go to the temple, it's such a beautiful, peaceful place. We'd probably all, if we had our choice, love to just go ahead and move in and just stay. Just say, you know, I'll take this room, I'll I'll just dig over here and I'll bring my friends and family and we'll just all live here. Wouldn't that be great? But that's really not the point. I think the point is to go in and kind of get, I I I don't want to use any sort of uh military imagery here, but almost to get our armor like buffed up and shined a little bit, get the tarnish off, get us ready to get right back out that door and face the world and bring what we've learned there and what we've practiced and go put it to work. You know, I think um we talk so much about building Zion. And uh I think one of the lessons of the temple to me that I think is very powerful is that it's it's like this liminal space where earth is reaching up and heaven is reaching down. Um in fact, there's some great images when I studied Hebrew a bit before I went to divinity school. I was so taken by um the sort of the glyph of of A or Alpha, right? Um Aleph. Um it's it's like this slant, and you've got this little bend going up and this bend coming down. And my teacher described it as this represents the most sacred divine, like alpha god, right? Um, deity, and we're reaching up, and he's reaching down, and there's a little bit of a veil there in between, right? But we're reaching for each other. And I think of the temple as this in-between place where heaven and earth are merging, and we're learning heavenly ways to use here on earth, and then we're going out and we're taking heaven with us, right? Like, I really think the whole goal of building Zion is that heaven begins here, and we're being invited and taught how to build it, and so walk out that door and start building, right?

Obedience As Loyalty And Trust

SPEAKER_02 26:07

And I want everyone who's preparing to go to the temple to hear what you just said. The I because that it starts with the why. Why do we do these things? And this generation, they want to know it so much more passionately than I ever did or my friends ever did. And like you said, it's it's part of this elite generation who are coming in. They're very mindful of these integrity pieces, they're just coming prepared for this, and so it forces us to step up our game and explain it. So that why of like building heaven on earth now, having that ability to like go learn the lessons, buff the armor, and come back and keep going to work and building is is a really big motivator. And I I think one thing that you cover too, that's at least implied, is you're going through the different covenants, is that none of these covenants are like left field brand new. Oh, for sure. Yes. That's one thing I'm hoping you know our youth will hear is that like these covenants aren't well, I never heard of that before. In some cases, I think they should feel wow, that feels fairly redundant. Why are we doing this in such a ceremonial way?

SPEAKER_00 27:09

Yes, I think that is exactly right. Um, a couple of our of our church leaders, I think specifically of Elder Renland and Sister Yi from the General Relief Society presidency have given multiple talks, uh, devotionals at BYU, BYU Idaho, um in general conference, about this idea of an iterative process where multiple covenants is adding multiple layers of strength to our connection with Christ, to our covenant relationship. So these things really, you could say, Well, I'm pretty sure I promised to keep the law of obedience when I was baptized. That was explained when I was like seven, seven and a half, eight, you know, I had a meeting with my bishop as an eight-year-old. Um, that feels really basic. And so, you know, young people might very well say, Well, why do I have to do that again? I already did that. Isn't baptism enough? Um, and you could say, Well, baptism is a super starting point, but would you rather hang on to a thread or a piece of rope? Would you rather have a multi-stranded rope to be clinging to when times get tough versus a single, like a hair of a thread, like a spider web? That, oh no, I'll take the rope, please. So I think that idea of iterative covenants is really significant in deepening our covenant relationship with the Lord.

SPEAKER_02 28:44

And it's interesting how that rope is formed through greater depth of understanding of the already established concept of, in this case, obedience, you know, and going into that same parallel, how we're baptized, and then we go and go through the initiatory process where we're washed and cleaned. And and and it's in people, you know, with the different the difference being there is one is for our sins, the other is from the blood and sins of the generation. It's the same concept of being cleansed, but it's again, it's a deeper understanding, a deeper connection. And I love that analogy of a thread versus a rope. And the whole point is that the thicker the bond, the the more we feel his presence and can actually see his face, at least in the countenance of those that we love. I I think that's a powerful concept.

SPEAKER_01 29:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:34

So so as you're going, so as you've been this book just came out in April, and we're filming this in October. And so have have you do you have any recommendations for people who have the book on how to use it? Is it the kind of thing where you bought it for the parent to read and then discuss with the young adult, or do you want the young adults to read? What is your what's your what have you seen in terms of use of your book to help people understand this endowment of love?

Sacrifice As Investment

SPEAKER_00 29:58

Well, I think both is. Is a valid way to use it. We were careful and very mindful. And by we I mean the team at Deseret Book that I was working with. We we definitely wanted it to appeal to grandparents and parents and teachers and mentors. But we also really wanted it to appeal to the young person because you know it's to be able to pick something up and crack it open again and again and be able to refer back to your notes and the parts that just jumped out at you and that you highlighted and just remind yourself some of these ideas is really why books are so valuable, right? I mean, that that's why we like an actual book on a bookshelf or on our nightstand or in our temple bag. Um and and I think just giving some of these basic ways of reframing and suggestions of how to look for these elements in Christ's life, like I said. Um, you know, there are lots of different approaches you could take. Uh when I when I occasionally will give a fireside on the book, like I have a handout, just like a grid, basically. I mean, it's it's so simple, right? But I'll tell you what what it says. Like down the side are the five key covenants, obedience. Um, and I've got some really basic summarized ideas that the book fleshes these out, like each of them have their own chapter in the second half of the book. But we might think of obedience as loyalty, trust, and commitment, right? And in that sense, we can see how that's an eternal principle of loving covenant relationships, and that that would bless any relationship, right?

SPEAKER_02 31:49

Um, actually, I love what you're doing. Would you mind if we take some of just like a highlight or two from your book on each of the five five covenants? Sure, sure. So we can give the audience a bit of a preview of what the book is and it gives them that idea. Because I think the first half of the book paralleled beautifully with our first half of our discussion, which is the framing mentally of how to approach this and then understanding this next generation, how they're experiencing these early steps. Yeah. So, yeah, if you don't mind, I'd love to hear your thoughts on obedience and all the others.

SPEAKER_00 32:19

Yeah, well, so let's let's think about obedience. Um, if we think of obedience sort of as the entry-level basis of what we hope to be a lasting relationship, we know that loyalty is going to be key. Trusting one another is really important, and even just that the constant renewing of the relationship, just communication, um the interacting back and forth and back and forth, right? That's going to give us a basis that we can then grow a committed relationship on. And that commitment level is really crucial. So, like many people have said, that um the Lord's love language is obedience. And of course, he says, if you love me, keep my commandments. I mean, he's trying to say, let me help you out. I'm gonna tell you how this is easier done. Not easy, but easier, right? There will always be hard things. That's just life. That's that's mortality. That's what my first book was all about, was my life. Um, but but obedience is such a great foundational sort of framing of committed relationships, right? It's the entry point, it's where we start.

SPEAKER_02 33:41

If I hear loyalty, like you said loyalty earlier, but I've never when you reframe these laws, when you change law to love, you know, I don't want to change the language of the of them. But for me mentally, I think part of that opening is understanding that when we say obedience, like you said, it's the action-reaction. It's I want you to obey so that the reaction, you know, is is this this outpouring of blessings, again, like gravity.

SPEAKER_01 34:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:08

When I adhere to it in a way that's useful for me, I am able to move through my world differently. And that's what the Lord is saying through obedience, the way I just heard you say that. Yes, yes, that's so cool.

SPEAKER_00 34:18

Yeah, that this is the way it works well. So, you know, try this and see if it isn't easier than what you maybe were doing before, and and learn for yourself that, oh yeah, this actually is an effective way to do this, right?

SPEAKER_02 34:33

Yes, and the and the loyalty piece too. One thing that you mentioned in every in every aspect of the book, I'd say if there was one word to just to encompass the book, it's it's relationship and connection, or two words, I guess. But that relationship, the obedience is the loyalty part of having someone that you can just trust. Because he's already obedient and loyal to our relationship. It's about us meeting.

SPEAKER_00 34:54

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 34:55

It's not being subservient, it's about meeting where he already is.

The Gospel As Loving In Community

SPEAKER_00 34:58

Yes, and I think that's a really key point, and and I hope this comes across in the book. Um, probably, I mean, we all have so many favorite scriptures, but but probably my number one favorite scripture is from 1 John chapter 4, verse 19, that says, We love because he first loved us. We I the the King James Version is we love him because he first loved us. But but other translations are we love because he first loved us, and there's some intricacies there of why there are two different versions there, but but both are really valuable things to think about. And now that's a tricky verse because so often in English, especially, we see if-then constructions, right? And this is reversed, this one is reversed, so that's crucial to notice. It's saying because he loves us first, we love. And we forget that first piece because what we're doing is we're always reflecting his love back. That's always the goal is to reflect it back. But when we recognize that it's always there and it precedes everything, it's King Benjamin's idea of an unprofitable servant. We can never get ahead of it because it's always ahead of us, right? It's always there. So I think that is so, so, so fundamental to recognizing how all of this works is that we're reflecting back what he's already giving us. There's this reciprocity that's crucial, but it always begins with him.

SPEAKER_02 37:21

Yes, and the adversary loves to flip it the other way.

SPEAKER_00 37:25

Oh, yes, of course.

SPEAKER_02 37:26

And so this is the big complaint with critics of our faith or others, is this whole thing of like, well, you know, in order to be loved by the Creator, you have to be subservient and X, Y, Z, you perform this action then, like you said, if then, if I'm obedient, then he loves me. Then he blesses me. The blessings are so I've learned in my world at least, when we talk about receiving ample blessings or more blessings because of our obedience through our covenants in the temple, my the blessings are more about me recognizing them.

SPEAKER_01 37:59

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 38:00

There are definitely more blessings because of who I am choosing to become with my agency, but there is the bigger element of just having this eternal perspective of like, oh, I didn't realize that the Lord was doing this for me.

SPEAKER_01 38:12

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 38:13

And I I feel like I want him to bless me in this route, but really he's already been blessing me. And so that's interesting how Satan loves to spin that. And that's a big part of my temple-bound journey is understanding the reality of the adversary. That's a really big part in all of this. And it's interesting that the first thing we talked about with obedience, the way it's commonly seen is really intentionally created. It's not it's not by accident that most people think of if then when it comes to these relationships. It's really the Lord loves first.

SPEAKER_00 38:42

Yes, yes, absolutely. You know, and as you were saying that, I was thinking that um I think it's crucial to appreciate that we're learning to see when we go to the temple. We're learning to see more clearly, we're learning to see farther, we're learning to see more accurately, more divinely. Um, and I and I think honing our vision and uh, you know, it's it's almost like fine-tuning our prescription lenses to be divine lenses is one of the gifts of the temple because we do come out and we see everything differently, we see relationships differently, we see what we can do to lift them and build them, um, to build heaven here on earth, like I said before. So I think that's really crucial. I love how you describe that. Awesome.

SPEAKER_02 39:36

Well, let's get into sacrifice. I mean, we just I mean, I just feel like I got a whole new understanding on obedience. Let's look at this concept called sacrifice.

SPEAKER_00 39:43

Good, good. Okay, well, um, so sacrifice, one way that I think is really helpful to recognize sacrifice maybe a little differently than we have before, is seeing that the definition of sacrifice is actually almost exactly how we would define investment. That it's giving up something good now for something better later, right?

SPEAKER_02 40:07

I love this part. I love this part of the book. Yeah.

Chastity As Reverence For Life

SPEAKER_00 40:09

Well, this speaks to me because my undergraduate degree is in economics. So I'm an economist all the way down, right? That's in my blood. And I think that that really changes how we see our offerings to relationships because we're investing in those relationships. And a really fascinating piece of this that I think we sometimes overlook is that repentance and forgiveness are investing in a relationship. And I think that's an important part of sacrifice. Sometimes, you know, if if my husband and I get in a little disagreement or my pride's a little wounded or something, it can feel like a real sacrifice for me to apologize. I would rather not, right? I would rather wait until he does. Like that's just a very mortal normal experience, right? Yes, that's that's human nature, that's the natural man right there at work. Um, the natural woman. But but by going ahead and offering that apology, I am investing in our relationship. I'm saying to him and demonstrating through my actual actions and words, our relationship matters more to me than my pride at this moment or or my wounded feelings or whatever, right? And that type of sacrifice is really significant, you know, and we think a lot, say we're if we're studying the Old Testament, we're thinking about the sacrifices they brought to the altars, these offerings. Well, think about what you're offering to the Lord as evidence that you really want to invest in this relationship. And again, it's all reflective. He's already done all of this toward us, it's it's already been given as a free gift to us, right? And so now we're reflecting it back. Um, and sacrifice inherently holds this idea of you recognize that there is a cost, right? But the phrase we use when we talk about sacrifice is it's worth it. And that idea of the value of it uh based on what you're giving up now versus what you're hoping to gain and uh grow, right, is really meaningful because we all use we use that language all the time. Well, I don't know if that's worth it, you know. I don't know if I want to drive all the way to that thing or that place because it might not be worth it, right? Right. Um, so worth is is just a really clear concept to us in our normal lexicon. Um, and so when we can start to recognize, oh, this law of sacrifice, we know this. That this is in fact the way things work. And so we reframe it and we see how it's so significant and it can bless every relationship.

SPEAKER_02 43:19

And again, it goes back to the greater understanding that you mentioned at the beginning of our discussion about seeing things relationship from a relationship lens first, from a loving relationship lens, shifts the definition of these words in a way that really speaks more to helping us understand why we're we're doing this. And one thing I I had a bit of an epiphany as you were talking was as you were describing sacrifice as an investment, which really is more of this like celestial investment in the relationship. You could never use those terms as the official title of that covenant. Thank goodness how many fathers in charge, because there'd be all sorts of criticisms, but that does help me think about it as terms of like what I put in versus what I get out. And so when I the connection I made was this is that if obedience is loyalty, it reminds me of an a young marriage, as you were describing. It's like, um, oh my goodness, there's just so much excitement and newness and passion and all these things. And then the kids come and the challenges start to show up in a very different, compounding way. And that's when you start making sacrifices. And the sacrifice that we make there is a is an extension of the loyalty. So that's why these things in my mind are connected, or or at least I'm beginning to understand is how when we're obedient and we have that loyalty, at the beginning, it's like, yes, I'm committed to this, no matter what it is. Later on, when we have to make difficult decisions, that's when we prove that loyalty. Yeah. Not not to the the Lord, the Lord's not waiting to bless us. It's just that idea of like sticking to that loyalty through what we are willing to give up in exchange. But like you said, that exchange is always like impossible to catch up on. It's not about that, it's about who we're becoming.

Consecration And Stewardship

SPEAKER_00 44:59

Well, and and I think really we're not proving it to the Lord, we're proving it to ourselves. Thank you. Right? We're we're showing, oh yeah, no, this really does matter to me, actually. When I've real when I've done the math, I would rather spend this time helping my spouse than getting a pedicure or whatever, right? Like doing something for myself. And and I think that is important. And then something you said just reminded me too that I think there's a there's an interesting kind of stair step quality to obedience to sacrifice because so much of obedience, especially when we're young, is is this idea, well, why? Why do I have to do it that way? Why is that the way? Why is that the rule? And any loving adult to a small child eventually has to get to the point of saying it just is. Okay, you you can't understand this right now, but please trust me. Please trust me. This is how I need you to do this right now, to stay safe, to be happy, for things to go smoothly. Later you'll understand it more, right? And that's in that sense, the law of sacrifice is a slightly more mature stance of now. Oh, I get the cost. And ouch. There's a little ouch to that. Can't I have everything? No, right? Constraints, constraints make it so we have to make a choice, and we choose to invest in the relationship. So I think those two go hand in hand so beautifully.

SPEAKER_02 46:45

It is, and it's such a beautiful thought when you think about the presentation of the endowment, how it's in the law of sacrifice where we start to really receive greater reward as well. You know, in symbolically, we we start dressing in the robes of the priesthood, which is a symbol of us being empowered with additional, you know, gifts. And that's when the rubber really meets the road at that stage of our growth and our development, is when the sacrifice committing to the loyalty and obedience really becomes more proven to ourselves. And that's a great segue to the next one, which is uh the gospel of Jesus Christ. So, yeah, tell us a little bit about that law from your your unique lens.

SPEAKER_00 47:24

Well, this one is kind of interesting in the sense that sort of the way it's been defined over the last several decades has actually been a little bit fluid. We've we've seen some shifts, right? If you were to do some research um and if you were looking back into say conference addresses from the 40s and the 50s and the 60s, it's really kind of uh of um a welfare sort of like self-reliance, like helping others lift them up, um providing temporal needs to help others be able to reach up towards the Lord, right? Um and then it kind of shifted, and Robert D. Hills gave a great conference address where he goes through the five laws and basically lists them off very concisely: obedience, sacrifice, loving others, chastity, consecration. And that's a really interesting one that really jumps out at me and and has always is in this idea that here at the crux, almost like at the fulcrum of the five, if we saw them almost like balancing on this teeter-totter, right? And you've got obedience and sacrifice over here, then you've got the much more mature ones of chastity and consecration over here. There in the middle is basically the cruciform shape of God's love, right? That we're reaching up, loving God with our heart, might, mind, and strength, and reaching out and loving others as He loves them and as we would want to be loved, right? It's that vertical and horizontal opportunity to apply the gospel of Jesus Christ as we love others.

SPEAKER_01 49:20

Yes.

Share The Gift And Next Steps

SPEAKER_00 49:20

As we reach out to them. Nowadays, uh the the wording, the phrasing in the handbook of the church and what we hear in the temple is is much more doctrine of Christ oriented. It's it's kind of the um you know the fourth article of faith that it's about um it's about faith and repentance and baptism and um you know, enduring to the end, the basically the doctrine of Christ sort of thing. And I think that applies as I mean they all they all go together, but in a sense, it's it's kind of the this um mortal piece of reaching out and lifting one another and helping, um, demonstrating God's love to everyone around us uh by doing all by living God's way, right? Um that doctrine of Christ. So so that one in a way is almost like the dark horse because that that one is a little harder to understand and grasp because we think, well, isn't the whole thing the gospel of Jesus Christ?

SPEAKER_02 50:22

Didn't I do those four things to get in the room in the first place? Like, didn't I do those things? Yes. No, I really transparently that's the one I understand the least because of what you just said. And there was something that you said that made sense, not knowing that historic connection, you know, as these things get revealed, there's reasons. And it does make sense that like we do go through that journey of the fourth article of faith, which is the gospel of Jesus Christ, to get into that room. And when we're doing these deeper, under deeper dives on obedience and sacrifice, it does shape that better for me. Because it's like, okay, now maybe that third one, the gospel of Jesus Christ, is more about double checking myself for sure, but also like getting it out there for others. Like, how can I support others go through their journey?

SPEAKER_01 51:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 51:08

Because, like you said, the first two is a lot more about me and God, and then we can't get there without our family and friends. We we have to help each other to be Christ's what Christ would do, and you can't be with Christ unless you're like him. So maybe that fourth, maybe that third covenant has something more to do with helping others along their gospel of Jesus Christ path as well as helping ourselves.

SPEAKER_00 51:28

Yeah, yeah. I I I really think it does. I mean, I think it really is a group project, right? We don't talk about being a covenant person, we talk about being a covenant people, right? Like it's meant to be done in community. And I think the community piece is really crucial. And it's the peace that Christ in his mortal ministry and in his mortal life demonstrated so perfectly. I mean, very rarely do we hear that he went off to be alone, right? And and it was with his father when he did that. It's not that he needed time to go do self-care necessarily. It's like he wanted to commune with his father and then he wanted to come back and share with the people around him and lift and teach and you know, um, help them all along and serve. I mean, serve it, right? He's he's like the suffering servant the whole time. I mean, that's who he is. So, so I think it's it's also the enduring to the end piece of um of the doctrine of Christ that I think is such a crucial one. We can think, well, yeah, okay, I have faith, I repent every day, um, I got baptized, I got the gift of the Holy Ghost, so I have the Holy Ghost with me, but that endure to the end, you gotta do that every single day, right? Like that's real life, and it's it's done with people.

SPEAKER_02 52:56

Yes, and I love that framing because again, you know, we get baptized for ourselves, we go through the initiatory to be washed from the blood and sins of the generation. So it's like we're as we're going into the temple, our depth of our relationship with our savior deepens, and so does our connection to others. And so that would be an organic step. And I think that's you know, once once we're at that stage, it does make sense to me that we would go now into chastity. Because once we've really committed and sacrificed and shown to ourselves imperfectly because of the savior, that we can, and maybe that's another reason that third covenant is in that order, is because sacrifice is not done perfectly, and it's that gospel of like helping us stay in that place of sacrifice and enduring. And then we get to the law of chastity. One of the greatest gifts we were given on this earth is the ability to have a family. And so, yeah, talk me a little bit about your perspective on that covenant in the book.

SPEAKER_00 53:49

Yeah, well, I I really um think, you know, I'm I don't want to second guess what's in the handbook or or shared definition wise in the temple. But when we talk about that the law of chastity means not having sexual relations with anyone other than your husband or wife to whom you're legally and lawfully wedded according to God's law, right? That's that's kind of the I think that's word for word basic definition, right? Um but but I think we can actually think bigger and think expansively about this. And I would offer adopting the idea of reverence for life, life of all kinds, your life, other people's life, uh, the life of the of nature, right? Creatures, uh everything, reverencing life and reverencing the sacred nature of our bodies. And I think in this sense, I would I would talk to so many students these last several years, um, in our stake, all of whom were unmarried because it was a single stake, it was freshman basically. And so many of them would sort of laugh and think, I'm not even dating anyone. Like, I don't have a problem with this. I'm doing great. You know, if that's the definition, I'm fine. And it was nice to be able to say, well, let me let me help you think of this a little bit bigger. Let's think about the sanctity of your body and everyone else's bodies. So if you are objectifying anybody, yours or another's, maybe that's somewhere you could improve a little bit. You're not an object, neither is that person you're looking at. They're not an object, they are a child of heavenly parents who love them. And I think there are lots of ways that we we could really find on a daily basis ways to reverence life to a higher degree and be intentional about it, right? Be more reflective about it. And for me, that framework really does change things. I I've just found that I just feel differently about every live living thing since kind of adopting those thoughts over the last many years and and seeing it that way. Um again, it it's thinking bigger. It's an expansive way of looking at it.

SPEAKER_02 56:27

It's it's a respect for life, respect for our bodies. And as I was as you were talking, this idea occurred to me as well. When the savior appeared, you know, he rose the bar of how to he made people think bigger just in his existence. And one of the things he talked about with the law of chastity is it's not enough, not it's not enough just to be married in in the bonds of marriage, but to even look on a woman and and lust after her has committed adultery already in his heart type of mentality. So when we think of chastity, and that one phrase that you said that I think was pretty verbatim, like that phrase is is is just the beginning. And in the temple, we expand, like that's if that's if that's the standard, anything uh other than that, even mentally, is going to pull us away. And it's a it's a really impressive way of of deepening our understanding of respect, which goes back to like when I can respect that boundary, I'm able to even further connect with our Heavenly Father.

SPEAKER_00 57:25

Yeah. Well, and I think if we look at Christ's mortal ministry, we see some really interesting examples too of his reverence for life. Um, we think of all the occasions that he healed and raised someone from the dead, um, the daughter of Jarrus or uh Lazarus, right? And and the emotion he felt at the loss of life, right? I mean, he wept with Mary and Martha before raising Lazarus. That's that's powerful. He cared. Life is important to him. And then you also look at the one great example we have of his um illustrating his power of death when he curses the fig tree, right? And isn't it amazing? He picked a barren fig tree. Like if he had to show, if he had to illustrate and demonstrate that yes, he even has power over death, let's do it this way.

SPEAKER_02 58:28

He could have done something so much bigger, more dramatic, to decide the point, but he has too much respect for life.

SPEAKER_00 58:33

Too much respect. And and my guess is it pained him to curse the fig tree. I don't think he wanted to, but he I think he just knew I'm I'm just I have to lay out all these illustrations of my power here, and so we'll do do it this way. So I love that comparison as well.

SPEAKER_02 58:57

Okay. Well, this is a perfect way to just wrap everything together. Let's go into the law of consequence.

SPEAKER_00 59:02

Let's talk about consecration. Well, I think consecration, um it a really handy modern phrase term that just packages it so beautifully is stewardship. And I think we could do a really deep dive into the difference between a stewardship mindset and an ownership mindset, right? I mean, you could spend a year studying that, and your temple worship would be richer for it if you did, because you'd start to just recognize in all the many, many ways that we're being invited to be a stewardship and collaborate with Christ to build his kingdom by his side, right? Um and and there's so many stories in the scriptures of this. I mean, the the labors in the vineyard, right? Um just all all of the ways that we see. Him as the master, and he's got a servant developing talents, growing talents, um uh working on all those trees, replanting, removing, burning the bad parts, saving the good parts, trying again, trying again, trying again, right? I mean, I think that's really um it's the pinnacle of the five, because when we've reached the degree of maturity that we absolutely love the first four, that we have embraced them, that we want these to be a part of who we are, that this is our way of living and loving, then it's so natural that we would take all of that and want to give it to everyone and help everyone have the same thing. So, so the law of consecration is about we're gonna give everything we have to building the kingdom, helping him in his work. We're gonna partner with him, um, we're gonna yoke ourselves to him because we love his way, and this is his way, and this is the ultimate in sharing.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:12

It is the ultimate. You know, Joseph Smith said something that I'm gonna butcher, but I'll get the concept across, which is a religion that is incapable of asking for someone to give their all is incapable of blessing with all that God has. Yes, or something to that extent. And it's this idea of once we've I loved how you said that, once we love those first laws, we are then in a position where we've had experience. We know firsthand the exchange is is abundant in return on such a celestial level that we want to give all that we have. And kind of a crude story that it made me remember was I had a member of my team who was working a few different jobs at the same time, and they had such great potential in our company. They had such great like abilities to serve and grow. And I just knew that like from the outside, it was easy for me to say, if you were able just to like go all in on this one thing and be a part of our team and really commit to us, your impact would be bigger. So would your income and all these different things? And they ended up choosing that. They ended up like, you know what, you're right. They they cut off all other things and went all in on this company that was really meant to help others. And it was amazing to see how years later I talked to her and I just said, So tell me about are you grateful you did that? I knew the answer, but her answer surprised me when she said, Yeah, I on every level, financially, emotionally, the return of my time in spending here is exponentially more than I would have received if I had continued to spread myself across multiple commitments. And I think about that in my world as being human on the earth, there's all these commitments that we have, but are we spiritually all in? And all in looks like dedicating our times and talents and energy to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, so that that window can be fully open from heaven and the blessings can come down on an exponential level that we can't understand, not because the Lord needs any anything else, it's because he wants us to feel that.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:20

Well, and not only that, but I think the key difference is you can go through the motions and practicing living as if, or you know, living in these consecrated ways will help you become more consecrated, but ultimately, real deep, true consecration comes through love. And it will be when you love the Lord's way that the the most real consecration is like you saying, I can't not share this. I can't not, because I'm like bursting with my love of the Lord and love of his kingdom and his children, that I have to share this. And that's consecration. I mean, that's the goal.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:09

By the way, President Oaks, I was doing some short uh video form videos for the channel, and I read, I was going through quotes from President Oaks. So just in honor of our new prophet, one of his quotes was, and I'm gonna again kind of rephrase it in my language, but he said that you can really measure your own commitment and conversion based on your willingness and frequency of sharing the gospel of Jesus Christ with others. And I think it's exactly what you just said. When we have that, like, oh my goodness, I've received this gift. You gotta go get this thing. This is so good. I want you to have it because I love you. And by the way, my ability to love has expanded because of who I've become in doing these things. And I want you to have it. And so I wonder if we approached it like that with our kids a little bit more like, oh my gosh, the temple is a way to get access to the Lord's blessings in a way. And that will just like you're I can't wait for you to experience it. But it's not just the blessings, it's who you become in the process, which by the way is all about Jesus. And I wonder if we had that kind of enthusiasm and clarity when we presented these things to them that it wouldn't help them uh understand early on what it's all about.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:15

Yeah, I I would love to say to newcomers, oh, you you go in the temple and you feel God's love so keenly, so um, so purely and intensely that you just want like you just want to soak it in, and then you just want to go out and just beam it out and share it, right? Because it's there. God loves us that way, but but go and feel it and just just like soak in it and then go out and share, right? Then you'll be the sponge that you could just like ring out all over everyone.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:55

And let them know that like it takes multiple exposures to get to that place. So just so let worry less about, um, as Mark Matthew says, worry less about the Old Testament wrapping paper of the gift and focus more on the feeling in the heart of what's occurring there because if we can just focus on Jesus, I think that's that connecting piece to our hearts. Um honestly, Mindy, this has been such a fun and insightful conversation. How do people get a hold of an endowment of love your book? I'm I'm putting it on screen for people to see the.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:26

Oh, that's nice. Well, uh, it's it's available through Deseret Book, of course, um, on Amazon. I think anywhere you order books, basically. Um I'll put a link in the show notes for sure.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:38

Everyone who's listening, please go to this book, go get this book. This is a two-hour read. If you're slow like me, my wife blazed through this because she's a big reader. Uh by the way, I feel like I have to go apologize to her after this episode for a few things. I'm just kidding. But like, but this idea of like it's a it's a very I loved how you wrote this for the audience of the next generation as a father of grown children, this idea of giving them something that's a chewable bite that completely expands how they see things as a massive gift. We are also really excited uh to let the listeners know that we are gonna get some autograph copies from Mindy and we'll be giving those away on our Instagram channel. So please go check that out as well. Um, but either way, get a copy of this book. Mindy, thank you again for being on the show.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:23

Oh, it's my pleasure. Great talking with you. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:26

Thanks again for listening to today's episode of Temple Bound. If you enjoyed today's show, make sure to join us over on Instagram at Temple Bound Podcast to receive additional information as well as previews of our upcoming episodes. See you over there.