The Triad of Discipleship: Testimony, Conversion, and Consecration with Nathan Shields

In this powerful episode, Will Humphreys sits down with Nathan Shields for a deep dive into the progressive nature of the covenant path. Nathan brings a unique "triad" of talks to the table, connecting the dots between an emotional testimony, the deepening of conversion, and the ultimate step of lifelong consecration.

Together, they explore the transition from knowing the gospel is true to becoming a new being through Jesus Christ. From the "on fire" delivery of Elder Kevin Brown to the apostolic clarity of Elder David A. Bednar and the profound insights of Elder Neal A. Maxwell, this conversation is a roadmap for anyone looking to bridge the gap between "sowing" righteous actions and "reaping" spiritual transformation.

Key Takeaways

• The Path as a Cycle: Discipleship isn't a one-and-done staircase; it is a "rinse and repeat" cycle of gaining testimony, deepening conversion, and submitting our will through consecration.
• Defining "The Gap": That space between doing the right thing and feeling the reward has a name: Faith.
• The Only True Gift: Following Elder Maxwell’s teaching, the only uniquely personal thing we have to place on God’s altar is our individual will.
• Losing Self to Find Identity: Consecration isn't about losing your personality or hobbies (like quilting!); it’s about losing the "old self" to find your true, upgraded identity in Christ.
• The Power of Daily Repentance: Repentance isn't just a correction to the path—it is the path. It is the process by which our desires are educated and our hearts are changed. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:05

Today on Temple Bound, Nathan Shields and I dive into three powerful talks that form one eternal pathway: testimony, conversion, and consecration. This correlation between these three talks is going to be so interesting because we bounce from Kevin W. Brown's fiery testimony message of testimony to David A. Bednar's call to be truly converted. And then we trace it back to Neil A. Maxwell's invitation to have our will swallowed up in God's. It was such a transformational discussion that Nathan and I were able to have. So remember, this episode's about cycle. It's about what happens in the gap when faith feels quiet. So if you've ever wondered why obedience isn't enough or why repentance is actually joy, this conversation will stretch you in the best way. So, Nathan, I am so excited to have this conversation with you. Um, I love that you're the first person who's ever brought two talks to the table. We're talking The Eternal Gift of Testimony by Elder Kevin G. Brown from the most recent general conference. Yeah, it's a layup.

SPEAKER_03 1:05

It's a layup. He was so on fire. Really? I mean, wasn't he? Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:09

Did he not stand out? Oh, everyone's been talking about it. My mother turned to me and she's like, That man, that's how my testimony is. And I was like, oh, okay. It's not often that an 84-year-old woman would connect with someone from Jamaica in their 30s, but you know, that's exactly. But he did his testimony, his talk was so powerful. Well, I'm surprised you guys you haven't talked about it yet. Yeah, we haven't.

SPEAKER_03 1:28

Oh, really?

Adding Bednar And Maxwell To The Path

SPEAKER_00 1:28

You haven't talked about it. And then you, but one thing that you did as well that's also different is that you paired it with a second talk uh called Converted Unto the Lord by Elder David A. Bednar, which together you commented how these things so go so well together, and it was so beautiful, Nathan, because I have something going on in my personal world with someone I love that I needed to hear this so that I could help them with this. And so I can't thank you enough for being guided and picking these two talks today.

SPEAKER_03 1:52

Well, these actually came from a third talk.

SPEAKER_00 1:55

A third talk?

SPEAKER_03 1:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:56

A triad?

Submitting Our Will To God

SPEAKER_03 1:57

Yeah, we got a triad going on. Which is which is goes back to a talk by Neil A. Maxwell back in October 1995. Okay. Swallowed up in the will of the father. Wow. And so yeah, I I I don't know why. Well, I I like making connections, right? Maybe I'm maybe it's just me, but yeah, I like making connections, and I see these connections in my head, and sometimes they're straight lines, sometimes they're circles, whatnot. But recently it's almost a regression back to Elder Brown's talk because I've heard this particular quote a few times in the last couple of months, and I love it, by Neil A. Maxwell, and it it made me like work backwards, and then I heard Bednar's talk get quoted in Sacrament Meeting, and that made reminded me of Elder Brown's talk another time. But this quote at the end of uh Elder Maxwell's talk was, and you've probably heard this before. He said, The submission of one's will is really the only uniquely personal thing we have to place on God's altar. The many other things that we actually give are actually the things that He has already given or loaned to us. However, when you and I finally submit ourselves by letting our individual wills be swallowed up in God's will, then we are really giving something to him. It is the only possession which we true which is truly ours to give. Right? And so his whole talk is about consecration. And so to to just give you an overview how I work backwards is well to get to that point, I I looked at Elder Brown's talk as a testimony, right? And we also we all have to gain a testimony, right? And in Elder Bednar's talk, it's like yeah, a testimony isn't sufficient, frankly.

SPEAKER_00 3:58

It opens the door to the path, but the path is something else.

Testimony Opens The Door

SPEAKER_03 4:01

We we need to change and become different beings, right? Um, and he uh and in in support of that, Elder Bednar talks about the parable of the ten virgins, right? Those who have oil and those who don't, they both have lamps, but some have oil and some don't. So the testimony must lead to conversion, and what does conversion look like? But Maxwell, dude, his talks are so amazing and deep, but he takes conversion, I from what I could see, what I was putting together, further to actual consecration, right? And so taking it from uh from totally submitting our will to God, how do we go from gaining a testimony to totally submitting? And it seems like, and that's the process that I saw testimony to true conversion to consecration.

Temple Lens On The Covenant Path

SPEAKER_00 4:52

It's interesting too, because in the temple, obviously the fifth and highest law we learn is is the law of consecration. Right. And so to get in the room, to get in the room, we have to have not only a testimony, but some degree of conversion for us to be able to get to that point where we we qualify for the recommend and then we go in. Sure. So that we can learn more about that ultimate step of consecration. And it's powerful to think how those three things, I love how you spelled that out, those three things are beautifully connected in a path.

SPEAKER_03 5:21

Yeah, it it just seemed like there's there's just something more and and and this is what a lot of um Protestant evangelicas might be upset with us about, is that it it's more than just the knowledge of, right? Which is a testimony of a knowledge of it. I believe it's true, you name it. But there's more to it than that. If if if we really if if our hearts aren't changing, then we're just carnal beings with the knowledge. If our natures aren't changing, if our to go deeper into what Maxwell was saying, our desires have to change. We have to desire to be one with God, to submit to Him, to fully receive all that we can in the celestial world. Because what you're talking about relating it to the temple, simple obedience is that's like the T Lester laws.

SPEAKER_01 6:23

Yeah.

Relationship Over Routine

SPEAKER_03 6:23

Notice we get the kind of law of consecration in a terrestrial room, right? It's a it's a step above. But there's another step to get into the celestial world, and it's more than consecration, it's full submission, becoming one, right? And so noticing those things made these talks a little bit more powerful for me and made that ultimate connection.

How The Holy Ghost Confirms Truth

SPEAKER_00 6:47

Yes, and I think it's powerful because we when we see the covenant path, we think of it in terms of covenants. We think about baptism, we think about the things we do in the temple. But as we've heard on this podcast multiple times before, it's way more about a relationship than it is about anything else. And so when we talk about testimony, conversion, consecration, as you've laid it out, you know, these are progressive steps that allow us to become more like our savior, but get to, but it starts with getting to know him and feeling of him through the Holy Ghost. And that's where Elder Brown's talk really connects heavily is the different ways in which we connect our Heavenly Father and the Savior through the Holy Ghost. Um, if I can quote from his talk something that he said, um he talks about how the Holy Ghost is that communicator for us. It says a testimony through the Holy Ghost can come in many ways, like a light bulb in a dark room. It can come on dramatically and suddenly. It can come like the sunrise gradually and over time. It can also come like rays of light, intermittent exposure to pure intelligence, whatever the way it comes through the Holy Ghost. And so these first steps that we take, um, it's interesting because I don't, at least the way I experience it, Nathan, it's not so much like I gain a testimony, done. I I'm converted, finished. Now I'm consecrated. I'm I it's it's this like cycle of like going back to that those testimony steps on things that I have less of a testimony of and gaining greater light and knowledge, but then it's the actions around those that lead more to my conversion and then ultimately my like you said beautifully, the submission of all my all of my agency in any domain of my life as consecration.

The Gap Between Sowing And Reaping

SPEAKER_03 8:31

Yeah, it I like that you mentioned that it's a cycle because um even Maxwell says consecration is thus both a principle and a process. And it is not tied to any single moment. And Bednar talked about that as well, right? He he talked about how the people of King Benjamin, they heard his talk and they were like, dude, I'm all in. Like, let's go. Give me the name of Christ, bring it on me, that kind of thing. But then there were those Lamanites later on in the Book of Mormon who were converted, and but the process was slow such that they didn't even recognize it. Right. And I think a lot of us go through that, even though we feel like we're just kind of going through the motions as because our testimony is at a point that we we want to do more, we're willing to do more, we're submitting more, right? And and we gradually have a greater heart of conversion. That it it's important to remember that it is the cycle. So we can have a testimony, we start becoming converted and seeing a change in our nature such that we want to submit more. And as we submit more and continue to go through life, we gain greater testimony of what it means to be a disciple and all the things related to the gospel, such that now we're converted a little bit more and I'm willing to consecrate a little bit more. And it becomes a process, like Elder Maxwell talks about, to eventually become like him and fully submit.

SPEAKER_00 9:57

I love that quote. It's a principle and a process. Right. And a process indicates continuation. We think of all things, we we have this wonderful example from Heavenly Father as the ultimate creator, and we can look at the nature around us, we can look at how uh evolution has occurred in our world as one of the principles of how things have been created over time. And sure, and it's always this change that happens in different ways, but always gradually, always one step at a time. And, you know, as disciples of Christ, I think one of the most challenging things that I have experienced, and I know one person in my life in particular, is that sometimes we do it all begins with agency. So we lay our agency down, we choose the right. We don't always, like Elder Brown said, feel that Holy Ghost immediately.

SPEAKER_03 10:45

Right.

SPEAKER_00 10:45

So there's a there's a distance between our laying our agency down to doing the right thing and the and reaping the rewards of our efforts. That gap in the middle deserves a name. And for me, has been one of the more challenging aspects of testimony building because for some it's immediate. For others, they will they will sow a righteous action in in laying down their agency to believe that Lord the Lord is God or whatever that testimony is. But sometimes it's about staying with it and being patient with it. And it's in that gap where a lot of people understandably would go, well, if I'm doing the right things, why am I not being blessed? If I'm doing the right things, why do bad things happen to good people and so on and so forth? But it's not until much later when we sow that the Holy Ghost can, for some of us, can really confirm to our hearts and help us gain clarity as to why.

Choosing God When Rewards Delay

SPEAKER_03 11:36

Yeah, I think that gap is called faith. Oh, it has a name. I I'm just saying that I'm not I haven't necessarily thought through it. This is the first time I'm hearing it, but that gap is faith, where like all these things are I am submitting my will, you know, I'm I am sacrificing my time, talents, and energy. I am doing these things, and I'm not seeing the rewards. Yeah. And I think when we're truly converted slash consecrating, I mean we've gotten we've gotten past the point of testimony, and we've seen it bear fruit in our lives, that I think there's a point of faith that has to be there during those hard times where we say, um nevertheless, I will still follow you. I mean, we it's a choice. You have to you have to choose at some point. I th I believe God says, Hey, yeah, I've blessed you in the past because of decisions that you make. Are you still gonna be with me when I'm not readily present and available and or giving you blessings? Are you are you still gonna choose me? You know, there's a refiner's fire there.

Remembering Past Witnesses

SPEAKER_00 12:59

Yeah, it's it's the difference between transactional and transformational. I think the Lord does bless us um in many times immediately. And for any of us who live in the United States as we're listening to this, there was an immediate blessing that occurred the second we were born because of the advantages we have in in the in the world. But to your point, like I think there's intentionally these these delays between what we what we sow versus what we reap in terms of our faith because the Lord wants to make sure that we are being transformed. And so oftentimes things that we want don't happen right away, or sometimes our understanding of the gospel, especially if we're having you know concerns or doubts, it's very understandable for us to be able to like be in a position where it's like, well, if this is real, why wouldn't God make himself manifest now? Especially like think about a young missionary, a missionary who's out there praying for guidance. He's not there for himself. He's out there trying to bring people to Christ. He know he knows Christ lives to a testimony and to a conversion level. He's going out on doors, he's trying to feel and hear the Holy Ghost, but he can't really discern that yet because he's younger. And so off he goes feeling frustration and questioning why. Why, if this is true, if this is real, why wouldn't the Lord want me to go to the right door? Yeah, especially in a church where you hear those stories time and time again. I think oftentimes we think of those as the standard. I think we need to recognize that those moments are absolutely real and possible and not always the one the one way the Lord communicates with us and teaches us to grow.

SPEAKER_01 14:23

Right.

SPEAKER_00 14:24

You know, so I think those moments can be hard for people from a place of faith.

Hope, Believe, Trust, Then Know

SPEAKER_03 14:28

For sure. And those are times I think that's when we hear so much in the Book of Mormon simply the word remember. I think that's why that word comes up so much. Is it's in those times that I think it's important to remember our experiences from the past, the blessings that he's shown, the interventions that he's made, the inspirations we've received, the revelations that we've gained, um, the testimonies that we've borne. Because back to Brown's talk, those testimonies weren't given for a temporary period of time. The gift was an eternal gift of testimony. Yes. And so, but we have to choose to remember them. We have to choose to remember it. I don't know about you, but I gained my first testimony when I was about 16 years of age, praying about the Book of Mormon.

SPEAKER_01 15:21

Yeah.

Conversion Changes Our Nature

SPEAKER_03 15:23

And when I have doubts, even now, 40 years later, it's like I still have to recall that experience when I was 16 years old in my bedroom, right? That that's a foundational experience of testimony that I have to go back to many times throughout my life and remember that's right. I did feel the Holy Ghost. He did speak to my heart and witness the truth. Right. Or look back on other aspects of my life and just say, God's hand was there. He directed me. I did feel inspiration. I might not feel it now, but I know he's there because he's talked to me in the past, right? And we have to choose to also remember those instances.

Finding Identity Through Consecration

SPEAKER_00 16:08

It's amazing that word remember in this in this cycle of testimony, conversion, consecration. And Elder Brown said what you said like this: brothers and sisters, a testimony is not given for temporary use. A gift from our loving Heavenly Father is meant to be eternal because the giver is eternal. A testimony should not have an expiration date. It should not weaken or diminish because something in life has changed or something in the world has changed. It should be stronger because, like the servant's talents in the parable of the ten talents, my personal testimony is a gift to be multiplied, not buried. And I think that what you said earlier about like the Lord is eternal, and so his gifts are eternal, and we have our agency. And so it's a daily choice. It's interesting because we talk about the church being restored in the latter days, and one of the greatest things that was missing until it was revealed again to Joseph Smith was the temple ceremony, the Dowments process. And we look at it now to answer the question that you just said. It was a whole section of the three old purposes of the church to redeem the dead, perfect the saints, and proclaim the gospel. Like that redeem the dead part was just hasn't been a part of any theology during that dark period of time. And so now that it's restored, it's been so amazing and hopeful. And so, yeah, I mean, I think it's important for us to remember too that like when we're talking about following the Savior, there's the gospel of Jesus Christ and then there's the church.

SPEAKER_01 17:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:30

And these two things go hand in hand. There's a great talk that came out a couple of conferences ago talking about the importance of both and the relationship of both.

SPEAKER_01 17:36

True.

From Honorable To Valiant

SPEAKER_00 17:37

But the gospel of Jesus Christ is 100% true and perfect. And when we say I know the church is true, that's actually what we're trying to say is that the gospel of Jesus Christ is true. Oh, yeah. The church is the structure, it's the glove that the hand fits in, it's the way that things get temporally dealt with. And one of the greatest testimonies I have of the gospel of Jesus Christ is the fact that we are all imperfect people who are volunteering based on testimony and conversion and some consecration to make this thing work. It wouldn't work if it wasn't of God. I've had companies as you have, that's how we know each other is professionally initially. Actually, initially it was church and then professional, that's how I mostly knew you. But it's this thing of like, you know, when you're paying people and you're organizing it with a much more simple element, how many of those companies fail. When you deal with volunteers and you deal with a lot less structure, fewer policies and procedures, and you're going off of quote, how you feel, what God is telling you to do, there is no way on paper that this should work. But it works and it grows as is evident by our ever-growing church membership, as is growing by revelation that's being received like COVID years before it hits of how we're supposed to be a home-based church. There's there's endless examples of these things, and I don't look to any one of them for my testimony. I look at those things as a reflection of the love of the testimony they had through the Holy Ghost that was born first. That has to happen first to the Holy Ghost. Once I have that element, then I can look at those things with spiritual eyes and go, oh yeah, that's that is a really cool uh indicator of the truthfulness of our belief structure. So um, yeah, I love that. I think we've covered Brother Elder Brown's talk pretty well. Is there anything else you'd want to say about his talk before we go into Elder Bednar's?

SPEAKER_03 19:22

No, not so much. Uh I the so powerful. It's it's nice to see um someone in general conference come forth with so much emotion.

SPEAKER_00 19:32

I agree, by the way. That was so powerful to have someone just come up and and and really lay into their emotions.

SPEAKER_03 19:37

Like, I really wish I could have been around during Brigham Young's day where they're like pounding the pulpit.

SPEAKER_00 19:42

Yeah.

Entertainment, Purpose, And Alignment

SPEAKER_03 19:42

Like I for some reason I had the state president when I was growing up, and he would scream during state conference at the pulpit. Oh, about you know, just telling us to beware of Satan or whatever and fire brings them. And like, I was like, I even asked my dad, like, why doesn't why don't more people do that? Like just the emote, just just a little bit of emotion, a little bit of drama, right? Uh maybe some of us would wake up if there was a little bit more of that going on. I I can appreciate that. Totally. Yeah, and and so I don't know what it was just to say the Elder Brown's talk, you the dude was on fire.

SPEAKER_00 20:17

It was refreshing because it was a new expression in a way that emoted that really connected. And I agree. I think that's a powerful, powerful, authentic way for him to communicate that testimony talk, and it woke everyone up because it was it wasn't just the words, it was it was the vessel by which he was communicating it.

SPEAKER_03 20:32

Yeah, and like for me playing that for my kids, like I knew they were gonna be that it was gonna capture their attention.

SPEAKER_01 20:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 20:40

I'm like, yes. Or like the only one that I'd done prior to that was um brother Wilcox's talk. Oh, yes. Yeah, a couple of conferences earlier, because he had some a little bit of emotion, some story behind it, and that kind of stuff. And so it you know, or Sister Runia's talk from where she actually used some hand gestures. Yes. I'm like, thank you. Thank you. Anyway, not to get into that, but the the it was awesome in that regard.

Consecrated Service Changes Lives

SPEAKER_00 21:04

Absolutely. So, you know, so Elder Brown talks about testimony, and he starts really with this idea of like agency being, like you said, from Elder Maxwell's talk, it's it starts with agency. We have to choose to believe. We have to choose the desire. We have to have the desire to know. And he used words, or maybe this was Elder Bednar's talk, but it was um, it was Elder Brown's. I think he used the words like hope, believe, trust. Those are all different stages of a testimony, but it ends with knowledge. And he talked about having actual knowledge. And so, you know, wherever you are in the path as you're listening to this, just be mindful that like it's all amazing. This isn't a comparison game. Whether you're just hoping it's true, you're believing it's true, you're trusting it's true, or you know that the gospel of Jesus Christ is true. It doesn't, it's it's we're all in that cyclic path of trust of testimony, conversion, consecration. We're all in it together. And it's and it's not a it's not a a stage that can be compared one. Another. It's about us with the Lord only in that one individual relationship.

SPEAKER_03 22:03

It's all about where we're facing and who we're becoming.

SPEAKER_00 22:06

Exactly. So we get in now to the converted unto the Lord talk with Elder Bednar. He kicks off this talk with this quote at the top knowing that the gospel is true is the essence of testimony consistently being true to the gospel is the essence of conversion. So, yes. So talk to me about this talk, Nathan. What was it about this that spoke to you?

Desires Shape Discipleship

SPEAKER_03 22:26

Well, you know, we talked about testimony and knowing, and then then he takes it deeper into frankly, what are we becoming? Right. So if our if our natures aren't changing in the meantime, then are we really fit for the uh maybe this doesn't sound right, but are we truly fit for the kingdom? Right. If we're not evolving. If we can't reflect Christ's in our image. Right. Right? So he he says conversion is an enlarging, a deepening, and a broadening of the undergirding base of testimony. Right. It is the result of revelation from God accompanied by individual repentance, obedience, and diligence. And so the whole goal is to permanently change who we are. Not to, and this is what Maxwell goes into, not to completely eliminate our individual selves.

SPEAKER_00 23:28

Aaron Powell Yeah, talk to me about that because I think a lot of this might feel to people like when he talks about when we talk about changing our nature, are we talking about losing the essence of what makes us us?

SPEAKER_03 23:38

Yeah. He says, so many of us are kept from eventual consecration because we mistakenly think that somehow, by letting our will be swallowed up in the will of God, we lose our individuality. What we are really worried about, of course, is not giving up self, but selfish things, like our roles, our time, our preeminence, and our possessions. No wonder we are instructed by the Savior to lose ourselves in Luke chapter 9, verse 24. He is only asking us to lose the old self in order to find the new self. It's not a question of one losing one's identity, but finding his true identity.

SPEAKER_01 24:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 24:18

Ironically, so many people already lose themselves anyway in their consuming hobbies and preoccupations, but with far, far lesser things.

SPEAKER_00 24:27

No one says it like Elder Maxwell. No one.

unknown 24:30

No.

SPEAKER_00 24:30

So yeah, talk to me about that. What does that mean to you?

Prayer That Reorders Priorities

SPEAKER_03 24:33

Yeah. So back to your original question. People can be fearful that, you know, if I'm losing myself, am I really giving up everything that I like doing? All right. And um, it makes me go back to sister's testimony. She's like, I love quilting. Is God really gonna ask me to stop quilting? And her inspiration was God loves that I love quilting. And some for something that I love, he was just gonna make it that more sweet, or the opportunities that I have to quilt are gonna be that much better, right? And I and I think the essence of it is can we not become better natures of our own, of our current selves? Yeah. Isn't there more that we could possibly be and become? Right? He talks, he gives three examples of people within the church that minimize their impact on others because they're not giving of themselves as much. Right. He says, um, there are there's a group of members who are honorable but not valiant. They are not really aware of the gap, nor the importance of closing the gap. Thus, honorable individuals are certainly not miserable nor wicked, nor are they right, unrighteous or unhappy. It is not what they have done, but what they have left undone that is amiss. For example, if valiant, they could touch others deeply instead of merely being remembered pleasantly.

SPEAKER_00 26:10

Is this all from the same talk?

SPEAKER_03 26:11

That's all from Melixwell's talk.

Faithfulness Over A Lifetime

SPEAKER_00 26:13

What's that talk so everyone can hear this? Because I this feels like almost like a compilation of the best quotes ever, but it's all one talk. Swallowed up in the will of the father. What I love about that is this idea that um in DNC 68 we learn about how we should be anxiously engaged in a good cause. Sure. And I don't I go again, I don't want this like to sound like pressure to people who are already spread thin because there's so many people who listen to this, who are raising kids, they're serving in a church calling, they don't take care of themselves because they don't feel like they have time. This isn't about those individuals who are diligently and tirelessly giving their souls to God and their families. What we are talking about are individuals like me who could at different stages of my life have the freedom to pursue entertainment more than purpose. And again, there's nothing wrong with entertainment. These are elements about converting. That's why we go to the temples to understand where the conversion of these things happen and changing our nature so that honestly we don't really care as much about maybe things of lesser impact because we are more aligned with God.

SPEAKER_01 27:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:11

And we actually choose to want to be like him. My um one of my sons, who's an adult now, he struggled a little bit with this idea of like conformity. And he saw like being a member of the Church of Jesus Christ, Latter-day Saints, as you know, becoming one of many that are similar. Yeah, cookie cutter. Cookie cutter. Totally. His phrasing was being an NPC for those who get the reference. I don't want to be an NPC, he said.

SPEAKER_02 27:33

Yes.

Teaching The Cycle To Others

SPEAKER_00 27:34

If you don't know what that is, don't worry. But as as and I I just encouraged him, and it wasn't me by the way, because honestly, I don't think I had the influence at the time, but I did say just be yourself. Be you, be the be the most raw version of you and choose the savior. And and like for that, it looks different for everyone. And now, as as he has gone on to do other things and write letters, people I hear comments all the time about how real is what they say, how real he is. And there's power in authenticity. So when we talk about changing our nature as we come closer to Christ, what we're talking about is upgrading. It's not, we're not talking about uh changing, giving up the good of what we love about ourselves. It's about willing to give up whatever it takes to be like our savior. And I think what we'll find, like you said, is that we in losing ourselves, we find our true nature.

SPEAKER_01 28:25

Right.

SPEAKER_00 28:25

And that's what's so inspiring is that yes, we all become like the savior, but we are unique. We're snow, we're snowflakes on the outside. As we're coming to Christ, it might look from the outside as similar, but they're so uniquely individualized. And that's what makes that relationship so unique and individualized is that power of how the Lord just wants us, me with my stupid sense of humor. You know, he he he put that in me. Now, if I go pursue that to the degree that I used to and cross some lines, that's not what he wants. He wants me to use it to help other people feel uplifted and not made not for the sake of like making fun of another person or whatever that might look like, right?

Daily Repentance Brings Joy

SPEAKER_03 28:58

Well, the way that you can use that tool then when you're at the pulpit or with youth, can have you're able to speak to people that other people can't speak to, right? Or maybe you capture the attention of people who were falling asleep, right? Just because you use humor, humor as a tool.

SPEAKER_00 29:14

Or Brown, like older Brown with his passion. Totally. Or or you with your like soothing voice, which I'm so grateful my my audience gets to hear finally.

SPEAKER_03 29:22

That's this is when people start.

SPEAKER_00 29:24

No, they're like, I think people are like, this guy needs to be on more often.

SPEAKER_03 29:28

Yeah, you know, Maxwell talked, he says, each of us might as well ask, in what ways am I shrinking or holding back? Huh. So especially when you're overwhelmed, maybe there's a part of you that's um I would ask, is there a part of you that is doing more just because like you feel like you should?

SPEAKER_00 29:48

Right.

Casting Off Shame, Keeping Hope

SPEAKER_03 29:49

Or that you don't want to be judged by someone else because you're not doing XYZ, or you know, or are you doing it truly because you feel called and inspired by God to do it? Right. Right. And where we fall short, I believe, in the church is judging others who are not at our same level. Yes. Right? Like I'm willing to do XYZ, why aren't you? Right. Right. And let everyone have their space. And I love some of the LDS influencers on social media because those are the ones that kind of speak up to this point. They're the ones that are outgoing enough to say to question why people are doing some of the things they do. Oh, I see. That are counter to um ingratiating more people into the church and accepting many different types. Yes, right. Right. But he says, in what ways am I shrinking or holding back? Meek introspection may yield some bold insights. For example, we can tell much by what we have already willingly discarded along the pathway of discipleship. Yes. So just being a disciple means we're gonna have to discard some things in our lives, some desires, some habits, habits, hobbies, you name it, right? It is the only pathway where littering is permissible and even encouraged. This is the the important point. In the early stages, the debris left behind includes the grosser sins of commission. Later debris differs. This be things begin to be discarded, which have caused the misuse or underuse of our time and talents.

SPEAKER_00 31:18

Oh, I think that just hit me hard.

Joy In The Plan Of Redemption

SPEAKER_03 31:20

Commission versus omission. Yeah. And how could I be more I I think about my so my brother, I love him dearly, my best friend in the world. Not necessarily active, semi-og agnostic as it pertains to the church. Sure. And the thing about my brother, I go to reunions, and my cousins are like, hey Nathan, where's Andre? And I'm like, what about me? Do you care about me? Prodigal son, hello. Yeah, and and uh they're always looking out for him. Right. They're like, hey Nathan, you're cool, but we're really we're you know, where's Andre? He is pretty awesome. He's he's a stud. But I look at him, and again, not to disparage him, he has a ton of talents and capabilities, but simply because he doesn't use his talents, he could be so much more. Like I I honestly, I like I want to tell him like even if it was like go serve at a charity or help somewhere, if he was a servant in the church, he would do so much for the other people in the ward, right? Yeah. Simply because of his talents and whatnot. And I see that as like it hurts, right? Because I love him so much, I know what he what he has and what he can provide. And his influence goes going back to um that that quote Um They could touch instead of touching each other's deeply, instead of being remembered pleasantly.

SPEAKER_00 32:48

Say that again.

SPEAKER_03 32:50

So he said if valiant we could touch others deeply instead of merely being remembered pleasantly.

SPEAKER_00 33:00

Interesting.

SPEAKER_03 33:01

We could we really have a capacity to do more, be more, influence more, have greater power and influence on other people, especially, especially immediate family and friends, but even more so to the community because there's so much need and demand for help, support, love in this world because we are becoming more isolated. You know, we could do so much more.

Gratitude, Godly Sorrow, Move Forward

Closing And Listener Invitation

SPEAKER_00 33:22

It's so interesting because I like to think about the positive examples in my world of people who, like Elder Maxwell said, because they are truly consecrated, they're able to impact at such a deep level. I have a stake president uh in my Williamsfield stake who has been transformational for me. And very recently there was a concern that I had that was deeply troubling me. And I had this impression to go talk to him about it, which is not common. You know, I think usually you have your bishop who our bishop is phenomenal. There was just something about I just should talk to him about it. And wouldn't you know it, there was this Ward conference a few weeks back where we were together and it was organic. I wasn't gonna have to schedule an appointment and all these things because I'm mindful of his time. But um, President Colomar, his name, he he was I I saw him in between these word conferences, and no one else, I don't think, was noticing it. I I think I was just really mindful of him because of this particular issue, and I was kind of looking for a chance to talk to him. I saw, I saw the mantle on him. He he looked tired, like just for a moment, it was just a second. Otherwise, he'd he'd been very uptoned and connecting and all these things, but it was almost like there was this this brief moment where there wasn't something happening for him as we were grabbing food. And I was watching him and I saw just the heaviness of all of it, and like recognizing this is still a man who has a business and a profession and grown kids, and he's got many kids and all the things. And I just saw me in that regard in him, you know, that the element of like just a just a son of God, like a guy, you know. But here's where it goes from that to consecration and impact is I I find a spot where I can just say, Hey, I know you're super busy, I've got this concern for five minutes. And his response to me was, I'll give you all the time that you need. And it was so powerful because here's a man who I know had felt fatigue, but he knew who he had a testimony of, he knew who he was converted to, and so he chose to give up that. You know, he knew he could he could dedicate more of himself to serving others because that's what Jesus would have him do. So the impact was huge for me in a couple ways. The the discussion we had was less than five minutes, but it was transformative. But what I really took away from that was his willingness. Yeah. Going back to agency, his ability to say whatever you want, whenever you want, I'm here for you, the way that Savior does. It gave me a physical representation of what the savior looked like. And that's the difference because me in a tired state probably isn't gonna do what he did. And it is Yeah, I'll give you five minutes. That's not the time I'm gonna do it. I would have been like, well, again. No, but like for me, it's like it's not a shaming comparison. It's it's an inspiring call to my soul of what I could be. And the way that you feel with your brother comes from a place of love because you know him so well, and he is one of the best people out there. I honestly think that's gotta be to some degree how the Lord feels. I mean, we're literally his sons and daughters. He's he knows we are literally capable of evolving through this consecrated process to having what he has, what he has, what he has he said, to have all that I have. That means his power, that means his creative energy, that means literally everything in the universe. And here I am, not shaming it, but just saying more than once, being at night, flipping through my short form videos, trying to calm down at night. Like, and I'm not again, that's not a bad thing. It's just this like, is it an opportunity to give something else up to give to the Lord and become more like him? Because at the end of the day, you know, I'm I don't I won't remember President Colmer. His service will always be a part of who I actually am. And I think that's what President Maxwell was saying.

SPEAKER_03 37:12

Elder Maxwell. Yeah. He says, actually, everything depends initially and finally on our desires. These shape our thought patterns, our desires thus precede our deeds and lie at the very cores of our souls, tilting us toward or away from God. Joseph F. Smith said, God can educate our desires. Educate our desires. Educate our desires. Others seek to manipulate our desires, but it is we who form the desires, the thoughts and intents of our hearts. And I think that's I'm trying to find a way to be more purposeful in my prayers. And part of that is literally visualizing the God that I'm speaking to in my prayer and trying to conjure his majesty and and trying to be more submissive. Like, what what do I need to what do I need to pray about, dude? Yeah like I've got XYZ, 10 list of things, grocery list item of objects that I could desire and ask for. What do I need to educate me, man? What do I need to focus on? Yeah. I mean, I have these focuses, but where can I really truly make an impact in my life? And I think as we, especially as you were talking about some of those people that are overwhelmed, like as we do more of that, not to say that this is like Nathan's thought on this is the pathway, but I think as we simply desire and ask, like, man, where do I need to improve? Right, what do I need to shed? What can I what could I do better? Um, who do I need to focus on? Maybe extend outside of ourselves a little bit. Who else do I need to focus on? Who do I need to talk to? Um when I've been in those situations, and then my mind is in a different mindset during prayer, my mind does get taken away to it's usually I don't know, between you and me, it's usually business stuff that I'm praying about. It does turn me back around towards, oh, maybe you should focus on this son.

SPEAKER_00 39:31

You know, this child that I gave you.

SPEAKER_03 39:33

The people that you actually truly love and will be with for eternity, and not this temporal existence of this business. Uh maybe you should focus on them a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 39:43

This thing I loaned you versus this thing I gave you eternally. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 39:46

And so, and that's that's been helpful for me, but I know that that's a continual process. And at any time I'm gonna make mistakes, and I'm gonna have to go through the first principles and ordinance of the gospel again. I'm gonna have to have faith again, I'm gonna have to repent, I'm gonna have to renew my baptismal vows, and I'm gonna have to reconnect with the savior and endure a little bit better again. Yeah. In a cyclical pattern, right, instead of just this straight line that we're just trying to endure to the end now for the rest of our lives. Like, maybe I need to just start doing that again as I mess up. But then focusing on other people. Yeah. Maybe there's other desires that I can improve, right? And like they reference, I think Maxwell and maybe all three of no Maxwell didn't reference this. I think Brown and Bednar referenced the, you know, the the hearts that were changed over time and they barely perceived it. Right. The Lamanites, right? Yeah, the Lamanites. But because rarely does it come like all at once. It's that process, and then we see refinement over time.

SPEAKER_00 40:55

It's that it's not giving up. I think it comes back to that faithful and by the way, in the temple ceremonies, the word that they use isn't according to their faith. All these blessings we get, especially if you do the temple ceiling, it's according to their faithfulness. Knowing that faith is like yes or no, but faithfulness is varying degrees of effort, knowing that we are just so small in in terms of our development relative to this the creator of our universe.

SPEAKER_03 41:22

And well, think about the sacrament prayer. It's simply that they desire, right? It's not they're that they're committed to actually being they swear to be 100% of they simply desire, right? Yeah, and so I think it's turning our desires back into um alignment with God, and that's why it's so important to do that weekly.

SPEAKER_00 41:46

Yeah, and I and it goes back to that cycle. You know, I'm never for gonna forget after today that testimony, uh, conversion to consecration cycle. It's because it does when we hear covenant path again, and I've said this before, we think about ordinances and we think about this straight line.

SPEAKER_03 42:02

One and done.

SPEAKER_00 42:03

One and then another and then another, like a staircase, but it's more of this circle of rinse and repeat. And then even the circle itself isn't like a perfectly drawn circle. You've seen online where people are doing that perfect circle challenge where they stand. Oh, yeah. My circle is gonna look wiggly and and not on any specific, it's gonna look almost like unintentional unless you look at the whole cycle over and over again for me because of my lack of perfection. But either way, that's that's the eternity and the path. That is the path for most of us. And I'm so grateful for that clarity of these elements. So when I teach it to others and for myself, I can just think about where are they in their step? Do we need to focus on testimony? Understanding the Holy Ghost, understanding those first feelings, experiences. Is it a bright room? Is it a gradual morning sunrise? But if they have a testimony and they're struggling more on the conversion side, which is something that I think more commonly in my world these days with some of the people I love, is this idea of like not giving up, having faith between the gap of the sowing and the reaping, the ability to recognize that it's only through continued choice over and over again in believing, hoping, trusting, or knowing that we are converting to the Lord. As Elder Bednar says, a testimony is spiritual knowledge of truth obtained by the power of the Holy Ghost, continuing conversion is constant devotion to that revealed truth that we have received. With a heart that is willing for the righteous reasons, knowing that the that the gospel is true in the essence of testimony, consistently being true to the gospel is the essence of conversion. And just remembering as someone who's guiding people I love that if they choose to leave that path, that I have the temple, that there is endless hope. This isn't one of those things where, oh, you decided not to believe. Well, you're going to burn forever. That is so far from what a loving Helling Father would do. And it makes me so more desirous to be a consecrated member of the church and to give myself of myself the way that some people have that I am not able. But I want so badly to do. I just think it's been such a great conversation. Nathan, as you think about this, what are the thoughts do you have on this that we haven't hit?

SPEAKER_03 44:11

It makes me, you know, you brought up assessing where people are on the path, right? And I I think it was Elder Irene who said that we should essentially approach everybody. Any 80% of the time as you approach someone, you have to assume that they have something traumatic going on in their lives. And you'll be repeated more often than not. No, but I love it. Yeah. So I think we have to, and maybe that's why so you know in reading the Book of Mormon, when Alma was teaching at the waters of Mormon, what did they teach? Nothing but faith and repentance. That's all you talked about. Faith and repentance. And I think something that gets that we don't talk about enough seriously, and I wish it was a Sunday school answer, but daily repentance.

SPEAKER_00 45:14

Daily repentance.

SPEAKER_03 45:15

Like I I wish we talked about it more, frankly, because we like to think about the actions and this is and the knowledge that we gained. And yes, you're gonna feel the spirit and you're gonna get inspiration. But how do you really get closer to Christ if you're not partaking of the atonement? I mean, that's all he wants us to do. That's all the scriptures are pointing to. So yeah, if maybe we can focus a little bit more on daily repentance, and as we do so, then our desires will change, right? And then our hearts will change. And you would assume then that our intentions and our deeds and our and um and and our actions would then follow suit.

SPEAKER_00 46:05

Absolutely. You know, some daily repentance would take the the sting of the adversary's control over us when we do fall short or or openly sin. Um, because if we were if we saw repentance not as a correction to the path, but the path and looked at it like a child, like we've heard in conference, a child stumbling to learn to walk and how the parents cheer them on. And if we knew, if we could really hear the other side of the veil cheering us on, if we're dealing with pornography addiction, if we're dealing with an anger problem, if we're dealing with laziness or fear of action, which is, you know, all the different elements of a mission, commission, if we looked at all of those things as opportunities and our constant daily repentance as this thing that's getting cheered for on the other side of the veil, we would take all the sting of the adversary's control and the shame would be gone forever. And we would look at it from this place of like endless hope and possibility. Joy. Joy. No matter what we were doing or not doing, because we just feel that like connection. That's why we go to the temple is to try to get closer to that, to thin that veil and feel that support that we just don't get when the adversary is constantly trying to beat us down.

SPEAKER_03 47:13

Yeah, I love the depiction in the temple movie when God presents the plan of redemption to Adam and Eve after telling them that he's gonna kick them out. Yeah. He's like, I've got to kick you out right now. But by the way, I prepared a savior for you. And just I of course, I it took me some time to recognize the joy that they felt. Like, are you serious? Like we're not lost forever. We're not lost forever. We we can be redeemed. Yeah. Like you don't have to do this for us, but you do because you're a loving and merciful God. And and the joy of their redemption, the joy in their savior is just is is obvious. And and so if we can look at repentance more like that, of course, that there's joy in repentance. It's a wonderful process. It's not sweat and grind or I've got to be.

SPEAKER_00 48:07

Yeah, shame on you. Go be better, change your nature.

SPEAKER_03 48:10

I'm gonna stand in the corner with my dunce cap for two weeks. Like a punishment. Yeah, exactly. But no, an opportunity to change and correct. Why did he give us the opportunity, right? Yeah. If he was just gonna try to shame us about it. No, that's not what he wants. So taking advantage of that opportunity and uh being grateful and then having fine, have some divine discontent with your choices. Um yeah, godly sorrow. Let the summer in that change, yeah. Yeah, let's move on, right? Let's do better. This is why we're here, and let's take advantage of it.

SPEAKER_00 48:43

Thank you for listening to today's episode of Temple Bound. If you enjoyed today's content, please leave a review and share the episode with others so that people who are looking for this information can find it. Thank you again for listening. Until next time.