Finding Strength in Faith with Kristen Walker Smith

How do we keep going when life feels heavy and the adversary whispers that we aren't enough? In this episode, Kristen Walker Smith joins Will Humphreys for a soul-stretching deep dive into the teachings of Elder Jeffrey R. Holland.

Together, they peel back the layers of the "simple" gospel to reveal its true power: the ability to transform despair into hope and trials into divine refinement. Kristen opens up about her personal journey with mental health, the life-changing impact of apostolic words, and why gratitude is the ultimate weapon against discouragement. This isn't just a conversation about surviving; it’s a masterclass on drawing closer to the Savior and claiming your identity as a child of God.

Key Takeaways:

On the Nature of Trials

• The Gratitude Antidote: Gratitude isn’t just a "nice to have", it is a powerful tool to neutralize despair.
• Pain vs. Suffering: While pain is often inevitable, the suffering caused by despair is something we can navigate with faith.
• The Refiner’s Fire: Finding specific blessings within trials can fundamentally shift your perspective from victim to victor.

On Gospel Simplicity

• Simple, Not Easy: The gospel is fundamentally straightforward, but walking the path requires daily courage.
• Divine Potential: We are never defined by our sins or our stumbles, but by our eternal potential to grow.
• The Invitation of Repentance: Repentance is a joyful invitation for improvement, not a punishment for failure.

On Spiritual Support

• Apostolic Anchors: Elder Holland’s words serve as a bridge to personal revelation and guidance.
• Help Across the Veil: You are never alone; there is active support coming from both sides of the veil in your moments of struggle.
• Authenticity Wins: Being open about our trials fosters the deep, authentic connections we all crave.

We Want to Hear From You!

Our mission is to share stories that bridge the gap between our earthly struggles and our eternal potential. If this episode touched you, or if you know someone with a powerful testimony of faith, resilience, and temple worship:

• Comment below with your suggestions for future guests you’d like to see on the show.
• Share this episode with a friend who might need to hear that they are "freaking loved" today.
• Subscribe so you never miss these essential conversations.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:05

Today on Temple Bound, we are talking about obsessive-compulsive disorder, crippling, anxiety, and depression, self-doubt, while paying tribute to Elder Holland. On today's episode, we have Kristen Walker Smith. You might recognize her from the One Minute Scripture Study podcast or Kristen Walkersmith.com, where she has resources to help you and your family learn more about the gospel. But we have this powerful discussion today through the lens of this talk for Times of Trouble. This was from Elder Holland back in 1980, and I really want to encourage all of you to listen to that talk after this podcast because it was like hearing from a family member. We miss Elder Holland so much. And what he teaches us tied to the Temple Covenant so beautifully, I'm not going to even frame it for you, but it comes together in the end in such a powerful way that you will leave this episode more clear on how you have legions, armies of people on the other side cheering you on and helping you out. Enjoy the show. Kristen, welcome to the show. I'm so grateful to have you uh on Temple Bound. Let's talk about this amazing talk from President Holland. Why did you pick this talk?

SPEAKER_00 1:12

Yeah, we're gonna be diving into For Times of Trouble, which is actually like his pre-apostle. He's not an apostle yet, uh era. But I chose this talk because it was a turning point for me in my young marriage. I'm can we just start with a terrible story about me?

SPEAKER_01 1:29

Like let's go, let's write, let's go right into the story.

SPEAKER_00 1:31

Okay, awesome. So married at 19, youngest in my family, I was a baby and I acted like one. And I was like the ultimate silent treatment giver, and I was so proud of myself. Like when my husband and I would get in a disagreement, I never yelled at him. Like I never yelled at him, I never raised my voice, but I also just didn't talk to him for like days on a time. I was like, this is so embarrassing. I was the biggest baby. I was a horrible, horrible wife. And I one day came across this talk during an era in which I was trying to improve. I realized I was like, well, it's probably not good for my marriage that I'm not talking to my husband for days at a time because he closed the toothpaste wrong or something like that, you know? Right. And so I'm I'm trying to change, but I had at that point kind of given up because it was just so hard. And I was like, well, that's just the way I am. That's that's who I am. This talk was like Elder Holland giving me the most loving slap in the face that I needed, where it's like, nope, you need to pull yourself together. You're totally capable of becoming whoever you want to become. And it's just been an inspiration for me ever since. So now that everyone thinks I'm a horrible person, let's start talking.

SPEAKER_01 2:43

No, I think everyone relates to it. I mean, and by the way, that's my you know, we go to silence or violence. And so if you grew up in a form around people who yell, we tend to like do the opposite, and I'm the same way. I still am upset, I don't like disconnect completely anymore at my age, but I still will withdraw. And I don't know what else to do. I just have to like put those those uh frustrations somewhere until I can figure them out and being highly sensitive, which is true, it's a strength and weakness, but being highly sensitive sometimes. I just need time to kind of like process that out.

SPEAKER_02 3:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:12

So um that's a great show for another day. Is like, how do we how do we how do we take you know responsibility for our feelings and and our silence in that role? But yeah, I I love the talk to uh because you know, we just lost Elder Holland. This this episode will come out sometime later, but he just passed away last month, and or was it this month? We're in February. Did he just pass? Do you remember how long ago that was?

SPEAKER_00 3:35

It was last month, but I I can't remember.

SPEAKER_01 3:37

So recently he passes away. And you know, it was funny because my wife got real emotional when when she told me, and I was just very like, oh, that is sad, but I didn't like have any emotional reaction initially. Listening to this talk choked me up. I was walking to the temple, which I live near in Gilbert, and just listened to his voice again. And I hadn't, it's been years since I've heard that energy and that fire and that that wonderful calling forth. And I asked ChatGPT after the talk, I said, Chat, what would be the three words you would use, the three themes that you would use to describe Elder Holland's talk? And the first one is, of course, Jesus Christ. The second one was calling people forward and to not give up. And then the third one was all about hope. Like you can do it, don't give up, keep going. So he's he kind of embodied this coach on the sidelines of the football team who got intense, but you also knew he loved you intensely.

SPEAKER_00 4:32

Yes, yes, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 4:34

And so this older talk in 1980, I had to like almost do a double take because I didn't listen to it, the initial part, but you I want everyone to listen to this talk. It's it's 45 minutes, but it's you you feel like he's talking to you in real time. This is 1980 when he gives this talk. Elder Oaks, President Oaks was the president of BYU at the time. It was a really cool like moment in time, but it is so relevant for our day. So, what were what were some of those topics that you heard that that helped you, Kristen? What were some of those things you heard that you were like, wow, that's really speaking to me right now?

SPEAKER_00 5:03

One of the things that I love that he does is call out Satan. Um, yeah. I I know that like in the church, we don't generally talk about him very much. He's he's the worst, and we don't want to dwell on him. Um but the whole talk was about not allowing yourself to get discouraged, um, not allowing yourself to get so down that you just give up. Um, and and it was, I think, the part that really got to me is he said, if there is one lament, I cannot abide, it is the poor, pitiful, withered cry. Well, that's just the way I am. Now, please stop for a moment and realize that in this moment, as I'm reading this, I had just told myself, well, giving the silent treatment is just the way I am. Like it's in my DNA, I can't get over it. I've tried for about a year now, like I just can't do it. And he says this, and I love Elder Holland. Like I love and admire him so much that when I read that, the poor, pitiful, withered cry, well, that's just the way I am.

SPEAKER_02 6:08

I'm like, stop reading for a second.

SPEAKER_00 6:13

And he said, but then he says this he says, though not a swearing man, I am always sorely tempted to try my hand when I hear that. And then he says, Please spare me your speeches about that's just the way I am. I've heard that from too many people who wanted to sin and call it psychology. And that has been like a rallying cry for me for my whole life. Anytime I'm ready to give up. And it's been other things. Like, I know that our audience is so, so uh vast and wide, but I think all of us probably deals with a behavior that we just have struggled with for years, right? Like it's something that it's like, I cannot get over this. This is just this hurdle. I keep trying to jump over and over and over. And I love that he says, like, it's not psychology, it's not bred into you. You get to choose who you are. There is no such thing as that's just the way I am. And that just has it's helped me so often. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 7:10

Yeah, I love that so much because it's personal the way you're saying it, and I obviously relate to it. And when he when he said that quote, though not a swearing man, I'm always sorely tempted to try my hand when I hear that. It was so cool. And then when he said this in the talk, the audience just like you heard the the like impact of it when he said, I've heard from too many people who wanted to sin and call it psychology, yeah. And I heard that too. And and you know, and I just maybe this is making it too personal. Speaking for a friend, Kristen. So, how did that change this thing called you know, going into silence when you were frustrated?

SPEAKER_00 7:50

Um I it took away the permission I gave myself, it took away that pass that I was giving myself where it's like, well, my mom gave the silent treatment, and oh, this is what my sisters do, like this is just what walker girls do. And it was well, and and and let me go on because the next thing he says, please he says, you can change anything you want to change, and you can do it very fast. That's another satanic sucker punch that it takes years and years and eons of eternity to repent. It takes exactly as long to repent as it takes you to say, I'll change and mean it. Again, that takes away the permission slip of like, oh, this is too hard. This is gonna take too long. No, like you just decide and you do it. Like you decide you're going to change and you do it. I like so that was the thing it changed, is is it took away all of my excuses.

SPEAKER_01 8:42

Powerful. And without those excuses, next time you got upset, you just started talking to your spouse about it, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 8:48

Well, so it took so like it literally, I I felt many times like my my like DNA was built so that my mouth couldn't open when I was upset. And every single time, like even now, I my tendency is towards like, I'm just gonna be quiet. I'm just gonna go in my room and fume. I'm gonna go think about all the really good jabs I could say, but I won't. Yeah. And I have to in and then that okay. I'm sorry, I'm getting excited. But that's the other thing, is it doesn't mean, oh, I'll say I'll change, and then I'm just gonna change on my own and it's gonna be amazing. I every single time I am upset with my husband and I want to stop talking, I have to in my head picture who is winning. I have to think, if I don't talk, Satan is having the best day ever. He knows that I am like putting a divide between me and my husband. And if I talk, Jesus is having the best day ever. And so that for me is the mental game I have to play where I'm like, who am I letting win today? And I always want to let Jesus win. So it still takes work on my part, but it's definitely Jesus is helping me through this.

SPEAKER_01 9:53

Yeah, it's very powerful to hear that. And I think it's interesting because there's different reasons why Satan wins, but at the end of the day, if if there's negativity or contention, he is taking control. He is winning. And I like you said, this talk is such a direct call out to the adversary. I agree with you. When we go to the temple, when we're in that who how big of a role does Satan play in the temple ceremony?

SPEAKER_02 10:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:17

In the presentation of the endowment. That is an incredibly large role because he is an incredibly significant part of our lives. Like it or not, believe it or not, he is there literally everything he can. And the more we recognize and stand in the truth that we are the leaders in the last days, the tribe of Ephraim meant to bring all of these people together. Not because we're better, right? It's not that we're better, it's because we are just having more an opportunity to serve more. He is trying to tack us down at a different level. And so by not recognizing his influence in this, it totally changes the story. And and whether we're we go to silence or violence, and whether we're silent to punish, or maybe we're afraid of just saying something because we're afraid of someone, you know, not not knowing how to communicate negativity because it's never modeled well. Like it's like whatever the reason the Lord shows us, it's not hard. You said something before we hit record, Chris, and I loved. It was this idea that people oftentimes confuse, especially when they're new in the church, that the gospel is challenging or difficult. It's not, it's super easy. It's simple, at least. Maybe it's maybe it's not easy, it's simple, not easy sometimes, but it's simple to say the least. So talk to me about that. How has how has that worked in your testimony and in your life? That the idea that the gospel is simple.

SPEAKER_00 11:33

Yeah, I actually have had to learn for myself that the gospel is simple. When I was growing up, my favorite thing, because I grew up in Los Angeles, California, one of very few members of the church in my schools. And whenever anyone would ask me about the gospel, my initial thought was, let's talk to them about kingdoms of glory. Uh, let's talk to them about like how how we can become like God. You know, like I'm just like, let's go to the most intense part that we possibly can. And I've I've had to learn that the gospel actually can be much more simple. And I've learned that as I've taught the youth of the church, right? Um, one of my goals now is anytime I'm studying a lesson or the scriptures, is how can I simplify this down to its most basic form? What is this actually teaching me? And it has taught me that most of most of what we learn in the church, there might be bits and pieces of it, but it goes back to what Joseph Smith said is that Jesus Christ is the center of everything and everything else is an appendage to it. Everything comes back to Jesus and everything points to Jesus. Um and I used to think like, oh, you've got to have a degree to really get the gospel. Like, I need to go get a master's degree in in like, you know, the Bible and understand the Old Testament, and that would be fun. That would be fun. But the ultimate thing that I need is a testimony of Jesus Christ and of his prophets. And if I've got that, then I'm probably okay.

SPEAKER_01 13:05

Yes. And with that testimony, everything else becomes simple. And it's interesting how President Holland, going back to the talk, quoted, it's as simple as just say, could you say that again? I'd like for you to read that.

SPEAKER_00 13:17

He said it takes exactly as long to repent as it takes you to say, I'll change and mean it.

SPEAKER_01 13:23

Come on. Right. Like when I when I heard when I heard that the first time, everything just started crumbling around my belief structure of this like uphill journey to repent.

SPEAKER_00 13:33

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 13:34

Repentance is just a decision.

SPEAKER_00 13:36

Right. Because he does say, like he says after that, he says, of course there will be problems to work out and restitutions to make. You may well spend, indeed, you had better spend the rest of your life proving your repentance by its permanence. So obviously there is continued work, but his point is I think, I don't know, did you grow up learning about like the seven steps of repentance? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:58

Like I thought there were five, but yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:01

Oh, okay. Well, this the sixth and seventh are forgiving others and keeping the commandments, right? Like, but there's five basic steps of me actually repenting of my sins. And I remember as a kid, like having this mental checklist. I'm like, oh, I yelled at my sister, okay. Yes, I feel bad. Yes, I need to like I kept thinking about this list of all the things I need to do, but really all it was is just turn to Jesus. Turn around, turn back to Jesus. Yes, it's so simple.

SPEAKER_01 14:29

It's amazing how when we have the right intention and the right heart set, we don't need the step-by-step. You know, in the coaching world, they tell they call that epistemological, uh, coaching versus ontological. The first one is all about steps. Here are the six ways to be a better leader, or the six ways to recruit, or whatever versus the ontological is just like just love as much as you can and believe in doing the right thing to the greatest degree, and then you just start doing the right thing. So when it comes back to the simple simplicity of the gospel, just knowing that whatever we're doing is coming back to Christ and believing and trying in that uh we'll do all the all those steps the right way. Um, by the way, it's interesting that you bring this up because you know, at the very beginning of his talk, he hits what I thought was kind of the theme, which is this idea of like he says at the in the first paragraph, I speak of doubt, especially self-doubt, of discouragement and despair. And so this theme of doubt, discouragement, and despair was was really the overarching topic that goes through this this discussion. And of course, you can't talk about those things without having a heavy discussion on the adversary. So um, yeah, from your Chris, and I look at what you've built over time. How has how has doubt played into your life?

SPEAKER_00 15:48

Um, I actually I love that you bring that up because as I was reading this, um he he points out, he's like that that sometimes we just think that doubt and discouragement and despair are just like natural parts of life. Um but he points out I know of nothing Satan uses quite so cunningly or cleverly in his work on a young man or young woman in your present circumstances. Um I I don't know if you know this about me, I um struggle with obsessive compulsive disorder. If anyone doesn't know what that is, it just means that my mind latches on to my specific obsession is germs. And so my mind latches onto, I'm very aware of where germs are, and I'm very worried about, you know, anybody getting sick. And so my compulsive behavior is avoiding situations where sick people are or washing my hands, just trying to keep things clean. And for seven years, the OCD actually kept me homebound. Like I left my house as little as possible. This was when I was raising little kids, and so it was like I just wanted to keep everyone in my house safe. And I lost all of my friends, I lost all of my hobbies. I was I was miserable and terrified and depressed all day, every day. Um, and the best way I I can explain it is that every day I woke up and realized I was alive, I was disappointed. Um, like I just didn't want to face another day. And you would think, well, of course, like you have a mental illness. Of course, you're gonna be depressed. And yes, that is very natural, and that does come with mental illness. But I remember one day reading a book um written for LDS women with anxiety and depression. And one of the things it suggested that I do was make a list of blessings coming because of my OCD, not in spite of, but the things um that were good because of my OCD. And I was so mad. I'm like, this lady has no idea. Like I was so stressed about germs that I remember holding my baby in my arms and my toddler wanted to come sit in the chair next to me, and I couldn't let my toddler sit next to me in case they got the baby sick. And so I made the toddler sit on the floor, get a book open on the floor, and I turned the pages with my foot because I couldn't turn the pages with my hand and get germs on my hand. Like in that moment, I just felt like I'm the worst mother ever. Like I can't even parent, like I'm just the ultimate failure. But having no hobbies, no friends, I was like, fine, I'll try. And so I start making a list, and at first it is like impossible. I can't think of anything. But then I start writing and I'm like, well, I have tons of time to read my scriptures because I have no friends. I am learning so much about the scriptures. I read them all day, every day. Uh, what else is good? Um, I am learning to accept help from my husband. I used to be very like independent, I can do everything, but I'm learning to accept help from my husband. Number three, I have tons of time with my kids because I don't go out. And so uh we have a really strong relationship, even though I am so crazy. Like, and I just started writing and it was coming out. Now I do know I want to say this. I think there is this idea of toxic positivity in the church. Just smile, put a smile over everything, pretend nothing is wrong. I was not doing that here. What I was doing was trying to take the despair that Satan was really enjoying pressing me down with and instead see the good that God was putting in my life because of the hard things that were happening. Um, that was a turning point in my experience with OCD, where all of a sudden I didn't hate it anymore. I realized that it was this amazing refining tool where God was bringing me to him and it was still miserable, and I still woke up in the morning and just wished to be done. Um but it was the turning point for me where I lifted that cloud of despair by finding the blessings in the trial. Um, and I just I have the strongest testimony that Satan loves to use despair and discouragement, and that we can choose to find joy, whatever the situation.

SPEAKER_01 19:57

Yeah, that was a powerful story, Kristen. I I was very touched by um the word that comes to mind is authenticity. I think at the end of the day, the one blessing that's happening in this world of social media is that things are becoming so fake and so with AI now duplicated in a way that you can't tell the difference, to where what we're starting to value more than ever as a culture is authenticity. And if we're being authentic, we can't look at our trials and go, yeah, it's fine. It's you know, I mean, and just pretend like it's not there. But perspective matters. And I think that the truth in the authentic like way to approach this is that they're still good when we choose to see it. And so I think that's what President Holland was talking about when you talked about despair. He even says it later in the talk somewhere where he says, Look, a lot of times bad things happen. He says, bad things are gonna happen, but how you choose to see it does matter. And then he tells a really cool story about Thomas Edison.

SPEAKER_02 20:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:55

That is something I'm I'm speaking in a few weeks at an event and I'm totally using that story. It was such a powerful story. Do you want to do you want to recap that for the audience?

SPEAKER_00 21:03

Yeah. So Thomas Edison had been spending 10 years of his life, spent all of his money uh trying to develop the nickel alkaline storage battery. And um he he's put everything into this. And then one night there were fire companies from eight towns that had to come because his entire factory was burning down. All of his work, all of his money, 10 years of his life is going down in flames. And at this point, he's 67 too.

SPEAKER_01 21:35

He's old.

SPEAKER_00 21:36

Oh, yeah. No, like he's yeah, he's not a young chicken. And so, so yeah, he's 67 years old, and his son Charles is like frantic. He's panicking. And then he gets to his father, and Thomas Edison says, Where's your mother? Go get her, tell her to get her friends. They'll never see another friar like this as long as they live. I love that. He's like, this is the best bonfire you'll you'll ever see. But then at 5 30 the next morning, Fire is barely under control. He calls his employees together and he says, We're rebuilding. One man was told to lease all the machine shops in the other, another to obtain a wrecking crane. And then almost as an afterthought, he says, Oh, by the way, anybody know where we can get some money? Like the determination that, of course, this is gonna work out. Of course we're gonna be okay. We just have to keep working. I love that story.

SPEAKER_01 22:30

Me too. And it's again, I think I don't know the difference between that and toxic positivity. Other than authenticity, I think, you know, there was a choice. We still have our agency when we're suffering. We still have our agency when we're in despair. I think we have to, I think the thing I'm learning in real time, Kristen, is that step one is recognizing that despair comes from the adversary. Like I think that was a comment you made earlier that's really clear. The Satan is there trying to bring us down. The second thing that we have to remember is that there is a choice involved. And that choice doesn't necessarily mean we can be a Thomas Edison every time, but we can if we want to be. I used to treat a patient, Christine, as a physical therapist who was dying of cancer, and she had um she'd come in every day with this big red scarf that she wrapped around her neck, and it was a beautiful scarf. And then when she when she came in and checked in, she'd sit on my table and take off her scarf where all the radiation had just destroyed and removed a lot of tissue out of her neck and her shoulder. And it was very like something you would see as like a burn victim kind of thing.

SPEAKER_02 23:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:31

And her whole job, her whole job was to lay on a table while I stretched her arm and broke scar tissue, which was incredibly painful. And she would cry, and and I would cry, and we would just work this through together. And then afterwards, she would put the scarf back on, the smile went back on her face face, and it wasn't it wasn't inauthentic. It was 100% who she was. It moved me so much that one time I finally said, How? How are you able to like have so much love? And she goes, Oh, Will. She goes, I have my days where I cry all day. There are those days. I know I'm going to die. I'm just doing this to sustain life, to be with my family. She goes, but I've learned that life is like a railroad. We think it we think life has ups and downs. She goes, That's that's a bunch of trash. She said she didn't say trash, that's my son talking it through me. But she goes, Life is more like a railroad where you have two rails, and one of them is all the things you're grateful for. And all the things on the other rail are the things that are making life harder challenging. She goes, I choose to focus on that other rail as much as I can, and I try not to forget where this railroad is going. She said, I believe that where I'm heading, and the reason I'm fighting to stay alive is because every day of life with my family is worth fighting for. And I believe that there's a heaven. And I just thought how powerful it is to believe in the destination and to recognize our our ability to choose which rail we focus on. As um a philosopher once said, this is uh Frederick Nitzel. He says, Without a higher aim, suffering destroys. With a higher aim, suffering refines. We can choose the meaning in that. And for Nicholas, not Nicholas, excuse me, for uh Thomas Edison, he saw that fire is just part of that process, right? Of him stepping forward. His aim was high. He recognized that trials were there and that he had the choice in it. And I'm sure he was bummed. Like that story doesn't talk about it, but there was probably a minute or two where he was just like, what am I gonna do?

SPEAKER_02 25:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:32

But this idea that Satan's the father of despair, and this idea that we have a choice is very empowering in recognizing that it's hard to face, but it's like, maybe I can do something with this. Maybe I'm not a victim.

SPEAKER_00 25:44

I do think that that is one of the great blessings of the restored gospel. When Joseph Smith saw the visions, uh, the vision of the degrees of glory, I think that made so much sense of why life is hard. Because for generations, people think, well, I'm just trying to get saved from hell. I just don't want to be in hell, I just want to get saved from it. But this was a vision that God is saving us for life with him. We're all saved from hell, right? Like hardly anyone's going there. We don't have to even worry about it. But he is saving and refining us for so much more than that. And I think that that is is one of the reasons that discouragement has no place in our hearts, really, if we believe in that.

SPEAKER_01 26:30

Yeah, absolutely. And I I always and I try to give myself space to like lick my wounds. Like it's okay you know, I'm just again, this is this is me probably buying into that language of like me being a sensitive person, but like I just sometimes I just it's okay. I give myself that space to like be anxious. I struggled with um intense anxiety most of my life, really intense anxiety. I've been on medication, I've had you know, like panic attacks to a point where an electrocardiologist told me I needed a pacemaker because the halter monitor was showing over 2,000 skips a day. Where I've it's called a PVC, a preventricular contraction. And it feels like when you're skips like that, you feel like you're gonna pass out. And I remember it's just like really whatever it was. And then again, this is a process. I'm gonna oversimplify it a little bit, but not much. Was that there was a mindset shift for me that was very similar to yours, your OCD journey, where it was a matter of like recognizing the gifts that it gave me. And then really like this image of me putting my arm around this almost like that cartoon that came out later, um, where anxiety was a person, I put my arm around it and just go, This is my friend. Yeah, this is my friend who doesn't know where the limits are. And there's all these new strategies that come out. Like I used to be terrified of flying, and now I get I start feeling the panic when I, you know, start having the turbulence, and I just go, Oh, I'm not scared. I'm just excited to go where I'm going. And that tells us, even though I know I'm lying to myself, that tells my subconscious to reprogram this the sympathetic response and all these things, but it just it started with gratitude. It started with gratitude. I think how do you feel despair and gratitude relate to each other? How because you mentioned that in your journey of despair. Like, how why was gratitude such a powerful force for you?

SPEAKER_00 28:12

Well, and I think this is this is so great that we're talking about this because I I do I like because I've been through so much junk, I will have people come to me with their junk and they'll lay it on me and they'll just be like, I know I I should be grateful and it's gonna be fine. And I'm like, yeah, like it's gonna be fine in eternity, but that doesn't mean that today isn't the worst. Like, like you can still recognize that today is so hard and it's awful. And like uh, we lost my dad, my dad died of cancer when I was seven. We weren't smiling and having a party the next day. So I don't think that sorrow, like Jesus cried, like Jesus wept, right? Sorrow and and um these other like very real emotions are not necessarily despair and discouragement, they are a natural reaction to loss. Um I guess what I'm saying is, and what he talks about is of course we all have these moments, we all have these experiences, but but when it becomes a way of life, really, I think that is what he was talking about. When we become the person who sees only the bad, when we are constantly discouraged, when we are in the pit of despair, and that's where we hang out and we try to bring everyone else into the muck with us. That's what he's talking about. And I think that's where he's saying this mind shift needs to happen, where gratitude can pull us out of the muck.

SPEAKER_01 29:37

Yeah, and it balances out. So again, the suffering part, there's a big distinction between suffering and pain. When we're in pain, right, as you're talking about it, we don't want to resist pain. Resisting pain is a form of suffering. So, like we I think we're meant to feel all the feelings in this life, all the sorrow, all the mourning, all the grief, all the physical pains, the anxieties, um, the regrets. These are feelings that have a purpose, and I think we have to be open to receiving them. But to your point, it becomes suffering when we resist wanting to feel them or resisting what is real, as I've heard before. Here's a quote from Peter uh Frankel, who wrote a book called Man's Search for Meaning, which I love. He says, suffering ceases to be suffering at the moment it finds meaning. And so when you were talking about your journey with OCD, when you gave it that, when you were finding what you were grateful for, it's almost like in my mind, and for my anxiety, I'll tell you, here's what I was grateful for with my anxiety. My anxiety meant that um I wasn't scared to get on stages or be in front of people to talk because I was always terrified. People, people on it, because I get asked to speak a lot now, and people are like, Oh, you just have that gift. I'm like, no, you don't get it. I was I was I am as scared as most people are going on stage. Yeah, giving a talk in sacrament. That's my baseline or have been. And so, like, and I'm being dead serious. Or like um, just elements of that piece of it. And so when we give that that suffering meaning, it becomes transformational through the atonement. And I think that's what's so beautiful about the atonement. We learn this in the temple, is how everything we suffer with and for and go through is just to make us more like him. And is there any greater meaning than anything we can go through than to go through it? So I don't I'm still scared. I'm out of my mind of like losing my parents. I do. I'm scared, but like what where it makes me sleep at night is just knowing that like I won't be alone when it happens, and there'll be a meaning behind it that will be ultimately resolved in the next life, even though it will be super hard to go through at the moment.

SPEAKER_00 31:56

Yeah, I love that.

SPEAKER_01 31:58

Yeah, you know, President Holland talks a lot about, you know, you hit it earlier, but this concept of sin. So going back to the idea of like, you know, despair comes from Satan, we have a choice. There are things that we are doing though that create despair. And he talks about sin specifically. Um, what were your thoughts on that part of the talk?

SPEAKER_00 32:18

Um, once again, I I just love this man. It's really good I never met him in real life. I think I would have, yeah, I would have overwhelmed him with my excitement. But but um I don't know. I think that in the church, we do a great job of showing up on Sunday and and being dressed and ready and commenting, and we seem very put together. Um we we show up ready to serve and to love. And I think that sometimes we think that's what everyone else is like all of the time. And so when I go home on Sunday, I don't yell at my kids, but let's say, for example, and I yell at my kids, yeah, and I'm like, Sister Jones would never do that. I'm such a failure, I'm just the worst. Or my family misses family scripture study four out of seven nights this week. And I think what a failure I am. I'm such a loser. Other moms are doing it better. Um I think that Satan loves to tell us what failures we are. I think he loves, and and I think that's where the despair and the depression come in with sin, is when we focus and we believe that our behavior determines who we are. And that I think is is the shame part, right? Like Satan says you've sinned, that means you are your sin. You are the kind of person who uh looks at pornography, you are the kind of person who yells at your kids, you are bad. Whereas the guilt that comes from God just calls us to do better. Um, we always have value, right? We always have the same value to God. He's just saying, I know you can do better. Come on, let's try together. And so I think that's where where Elder Holland is really going, is that we're not just the way we are. We're not losers, we're not the kind of people who look at pornography or yell at our kids, or we'll never get the temple. We are children of God and we're being called to do better.

SPEAKER_01 34:25

Yeah, I love that. Um, as Elder Holland says, repentance is not a forbearing word, it is following faith, the most encouraging word in Christian vocabulary. Repentance is simply the scriptural invitation for growth and improvement and progress and renewal. You can change, you can be anything you want to be in righteousness.

unknown 34:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:44

I think that's such a great way. I mean, when I read his talks or I hear him speak in particular, it's it's it's it's weird to have something that you read just be so intelligent, but the way he says it, it just sounds like he's talking to you. It doesn't have any of that air uh that you get when you're reading it. But it's so intelligent and direct to the point. But he says it like this too. He says, um, there is a course, he talks about sin specifically. Sin is the opposite of sanctification, it is the most destructive discouragement in time or eternity. Um it is in transgression against God that depression is embedded in sin. So there is there is that like negative feeling that happens, and that's our calling forth of like trying to be better. But to your point, we don't want to shame ourselves. We want to recognize it's just part of that gradual process.

SPEAKER_00 35:29

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 35:30

I love it. Well, Kristen, was there anything else about the talk that stood out to you?

SPEAKER_00 35:35

I mean, the whole thing, the whole thing is just amazing. Um I loved at the very end. Um, you know what? It's not even at the very end, close to the end, where he says, in this church, we ask for faith, not infallibility. And it goes along with Elder Renland, a recent talk, he says, A saint is a sinner who keeps on trying. Um, I used to get so down on myself for every mistake I would make. I one time had the idiotic idea to make a list of all the things I needed to work on to become celestial. And it was, I it left me in tears. I'm like, I can never ever do this. Like, I can never do this. Um, but at the end of his talk, he tells the story of Elisha. And this has become like my favorite scripture story. Elisha is a prophet in Israel, and he is helping the Israelites to figure out where to go and what to do in order to beat the Syrian army. And the Syrian king is like, what the heck is going on? Like these little Israelites are beating us at every turn, and he is getting so frustrated and so annoyed. And so he calls his men together and he says, One of you was a spy for Israel. That's the only explanation. One of you is telling them where we're gonna be, telling them our plans. That's the only way the Israelites could be beating us like this. And his advisors say, No, no, no, no, no. They have a prophet in Israel, that's their secret weapon. And the idiot, I mean, sorry, he's not an idiot. The idiotic choice he makes is well, let's kill the prophet. Like, let's let's take him out. That'll solve all our problems. And so he sends his army to surround Elisha. And Elisha is by himself with who President Holland describes as a deacon-aged boy. Um, and this deacon-aged boy, he goes out, um, he goes to the window in the morning and he looks out. And what does he see? Syrian army everywhere, right? And and President Holland, he points out, he's like, if you talk about a moment for discouragement, this is it. You are surrounded. It's an old man, it's you, you're a deacon, and an army surrounding you. This is the moment for discouragement. And the boy says, Alas, my master, how shall we do? And Elisha's reply, fear not, for they that be with us are more than they that be with them. And then I love how he says this they that be with us, now just an Israelite minute here. Faith is fine. Courage is wonderful, but this is ridiculous. The boy thinks there are no others with them. He can recognize a Syrian army when he sees one, and he knows that one child and an old man are not strong odds against it. But then comes Elisha's promise, and Elisha prays for the boy's spiritual eyes to be opened. And the Lord opened the eyes of the young man and he saw. And behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha. And I love that point that my little celestial list, I when I thought I had to do it on my own was impossible, right? Like I'll never be enough. But as Elder Holland says, in the gospel of Jesus Christ, you have help from both sides of the veil, and you must never forget that. When disappointment and discouragement strike, and they will, you remember and never forget that if our eyes could be opened, we would see horses and chariots of fire as far as the eye can see, riding at reckless speed to come to our protection. They will always be there, these armies of heaven, in defense of Abraham's seed. I absolutely believe that. And can I just bear testimony that I believe everything Elder Holland ever said in recent years? He he spoke, I think it was at a CES meeting, and he says, I have not given my life to a fairy tale. Every time I see these apostles wearing out their lives, they are literally wearing out their lives in the service of this church and of their God and of the savior. President Oakes recently gave a talk, and I noticed his right arm shaking the whole time. That man is wearing his life out in service to God, and it's not for a fairy tale. It's not made up. These men know it's true. And through their testimonies, I have learned also, and on my own, I've learned also it is true, and I bear my witness of that.

SPEAKER_01 39:59

Thank you, Kristen. I want to echo your testimony when I was so moved with that last story and everything you just said, specifically around this idea that they that are with us are more than they're with them. And we are fighting a very different battle these days. We're not fighting these physical armies on the mountains. We're we're fighting the quiet army in our bedroom on our cell phone. We are fighting emotional and mental disease at a level that we have never been able to understand or fathom as a human being species before. Now we are here, and I know from the temple, this is the tie-in to the temple of all tie-ins, is that we get access to that army when we go. And I have people who tell me that their spiritual eyes have been opened. I've never had that experience, but the more I go, I feel that they're there. And I know from experience, from from being desperate for help, from needing heaven's help, that by calling and knocking on on the window of heaven, it opens and that you will be supported. Um, I feel prompted just to ask you how how um how has President Holland impacted your life? What has he meant to you?

SPEAKER_00 41:12

I have needed Elder Holland at every stage of my life. I prayed so hard for him to never die. Um, but I I have such a testimony of apostles. I think sometimes people think that we um we worship apostles and prophets. And if anyone's ever come close to worshiping an apostle, it's me with Elder Holland. I love Elder Holland for how he has drawn me to the savior every time I've listened to him. I don't know how you could listen to a talk he's given and not be a better person and closer to your savior because of it. Um when I first moved here to Idaho, I was so mad. We lived in Colorado and I was so happy there, and I just had the best life. And then I got this prompting, you're supposed to move to Idaho. And I'm like, seriously, I'm gonna stop listening to the spirit. Like I was so mad. And that very first night that we were here in Idaho, I'm lying in a bed and we're staying, you know, with someone else. I'm lying in this teenager's bed, and I am just sobbing in just regret and and just so much sorrow. And I thought, I need Elder Holland right now. And so I Googled Elder Holland talk, and the talk that came up was one from 1981. It was the first one that popped up. God knew I needed that talk, and it was called Cast Not Away Therefore Your Confidence. And it was the exact answer to my prayer, and it helped turn my heart to Jesus. But that has happened over and over and over with the apostles. And so I guess my testimony of Elder Holland is the same one that I have with every apostle. Is if you have an apostle you love and you honor so much, I bet it's not because of that person, but because of how they draw you to Jesus and how they help you see him more clearly. And I'm so grateful we have apostles to do that.

SPEAKER_01 43:02

Me too. And and they're they're all very special. I think Elder Holland is one in his uniqueness that I would call him my friend, even though he has no idea who I am.

SPEAKER_02 43:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:12

Or at least maybe now he does, but it's one of those where um by the way, your story cracked me up so hard when you said, you know, I'm never gonna listen to this spirit again. Last week I was with my son who's who's struggling with the decision to make, and I I had the impression to not guide him and just like, hey, I just said, hey, I don't, I I know you'll figure this out. I want you to go. This is very this is me as like a having multiple kids learning over time, by the way. I just said, go to God. Use this as an opportunity to go to God and and just want you to know that like whatever you choose, just put him above like what you think what other people are gonna think about your decision. And his exact answer was, oh crap. Now I'm gonna have to do a bunch of stuff I don't want to do. I almost wanted to say, yeah, that's exactly. And I know, you know, I said that and I just said, yeah, that's exactly how it goes. And I want you to know everything I hold dear in my life. Every great blessing has come on the back end of doing all that quote crap I don't want to do. All right, Kristen, we're gonna do rapid fire to wrap this up. You ready? Okay, first and foremost, um I okay, I was gonna use that Elder Holland talk. I usually do a rapid fire on something that was about that discussion. We just did that with Elder Haaland. Uh, what is your who what's your favorite temple? Is there a temple out on up there that you're doing?

SPEAKER_00 44:36

Holland, Colorado. I got to be part of the uh cultural celebration. I choreographed for the cultural celebration, and so I got to put my testimony, my written testimony in the cornerstone of that temple. So it just has special meaning to me.

unknown 44:51

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 44:52

Um, what can you tell the audience about your work to help people come to Christ? I would love for you to talk about your current efforts.

SPEAKER_00 44:59

If you appreciate someone that's me, who understands the gospel best at a fifth grade level, uh, come hang out with me. That is how I like to teach. That's how I learn best. And so it's all the questions that you have about the gospel explained at a pretty basic level, but also honoring your intelligence and your ability to understand adult words. It's not, it's not, you know, like single syllable stuff. But I just I love to bring the gospel back down to basics so it's easy to understand and really easy to teach your kids.

SPEAKER_01 45:32

Yeah, this has been transformative for for me. And I'm gonna share a screen for who are watching this podcast live. I'm going to kristenwalkersmith.com. I went specifically to backslash tools because this is uh these are you can see this. When your child's getting baptized, here's a talk or a lesson on the different things that you normally talk on. When your child's entering young women or young men, when you want personal or family scripture study help, this one really spoke to me a huge, huge deal. For boys, attention spans are what they are. Like having these tools have been transformative. So I want to say thank you, Kristen, for following your impression to put your light on a hill. You know, you get you get scrutiny when you do something like that initially, but when the value comes, you just realize that God's calling us all in different ways. So thank you for that. And of course, your work with the great Callie Black for your podcast as well, which is just phenomenal. And that podcast, um, for those who don't know, it's called the One Minute Scripture Study. I'm showing it now on my screen. It is literally like just gold in a quick minute. So if you're someone like me who struggles with focus and attention and you just want depth, this is a great way of doing that. Um, next question rapid fire. Uh, who's someone in your family that in your ancestry, parent, grandparent, or someone you don't know, who um who has a significant impact on you and why?

SPEAKER_00 46:52

Uh my dad having died when I was seven and he had no sons. And so I'm like, I am the one, like my sisters and I are all we're the walker line, like this is it. And I just have thought so many times of the day when I'll get to like really meet him. I don't really remember him. Um, and if you ask me the question, what have you done with my name? Uh, that has really inspired me to try try to do the best I can with the walker name that I can.

SPEAKER_01 47:23

You know, and that's a great answer. And and this last one is one that usually this is like their one maybe only chance to create something like this for their legacy. This is one part, our podcast is one part temple, one part family history. This is the family history portion. We're recording this in real time for your descendants. You're an unusual example because you have your own podcast. They have so much to hear from mom, grandma, great-grandmother. But I want to just give you a little bit of space here. What would you want your kids to know about this topic of what we talked about today?

SPEAKER_00 47:58

I think the same thing that Elder Holland said near the end of his life is that I haven't given my life to a fairy tale. It's true.

SPEAKER_01 48:06

Kristen, thank you so much for being on the show. It's been awesome to have you.

SPEAKER_00 48:09

Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_01 48:12

Thank you for listening to today's episode. We want to hear from you. What additional show ideas would you like to hear about? What questions do you have in your heart that we can help answer? Please leave those in the show notes of today's episode or over on Instagram. Thank you for your cooperation and helping make this show the best it can be. Until next time.