Michelle Bentley on How to Stop the "What-If" Anxiety with Covenant Living

In this powerful episode of Temple Bound, host Will Humphreys sits down with Michelle Bentley to dive deep into the visual and transformative teachings of Elder Edward B. Rowe’s talk, "Jesus Christ, Our Rock and Covenants, Our Anchors."

Whether you are navigating the "turbulence" of a health scare, career uncertainty, or the daily anxiety of the "what-ifs," this conversation provides a roadmap for finding peace that is "night and day" different from what the world offers. Michelle shares her vulnerable story of a life-threatening medical emergency and how her "worst-case scenario" became her greatest witness of God’s love.

Key Takeaways:

• The "What-If" Game: Understand how our brains are wired for survival and how to flip the script from fear-based thinking to faith-based scenarios.
• The Umbrella of Covenant Relationship: Learn the vital distinction between making covenants (the outward ordinance) and keeping covenants (the daily living and integrity).
• The Rock Climbing Analogy: How to see life’s trials not as failures, but as "slips" on a rock face where Jesus Christ is the solid granite and covenants are the pre-placed anchors.
• Confidence vs. Capability: Why true confidence isn't about our own strength, but about our connection to the Savior’s strength.
• The Power of the Atonement in Failure: Will shares his personal story of a 50-foot fall and how the Savior rescues us even when we fail to "clip in."

Resources Mentioned:

• Talk: Jesus Christ, Our Rock and Covenants, Our Anchors by Elder Edward B. Rowe (BYU Devotional, Nov 2025).
• Scripture: John 14:27 - "Peace I leave with you..."
• Scripture: Helaman 5:12 - "Remember that it is upon the rock of our Redeemer..."
• Scripture: Doctrine & Covenants 84:20 - The power of godliness in ordinances.

Join the Conversation

What is a "what-if" you are currently handing over to the Savior? How has keeping your covenants given you confidence during a storm? 

Leave a comment below, we read every one!

Enjoyed this episode?

• Subscribe to Temple Bound for more deep dives into LDS doctrine and discipleship.
• Share this video with someone who is struggling with anxiety or feeling "untethered." 
• Leave a Review on your favorite podcast platform to help us grow!

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:05

Imagine a tiny airplane over the islands of Hawaii with a storm rolling in. The cabin is shaking and people are screaming. And a mother of two with one on the way starts to go into the worst-case scenarios of what might happen. That's where we begin our conversation today with Michelle Bentley, who comes back for her fourth time to Temple Bound to unpack Elder Edward B. Rowe's powerful talk on Jesus Christ as our rock and how our covenants can be anchors. So if you've ever felt tossed around by life's turbulence, this one's gonna steady you out. Let's get into it. Michelle, this talk, um, I love what we're gonna be discussing here today, and thank you so much for coming back for today's show. Let's let's just jump right in, get right to it. So, what was it about this talk that you liked?

SPEAKER_05 0:49

Well, thanks for having me. Um, this talk was amazing. We kind of rock, paper, scissored on this one, and you got to pick it. So I'm really glad that you did because as I dove in, um, I'm a visual learner, I'm a visual teacher, and this talk is embedded with so many analogies and visual representations of how we can see our Savior Jesus Christ as the rock in our lives, and how we can best anchor ourselves to him as the rock and feel that security and those blessings that come from that relationship.

SPEAKER_03 1:22

Yeah, I think this is for anyone who's struggling with anxiety.

SPEAKER_05 1:25

Oh, for sure.

SPEAKER_03 1:26

I think this is a great talk. But we're gonna our discussion today is gonna really help people who struggle with the what-ifs. Uh, if you're like me and you're laying there and you've got a problem, it's I think it's a sign of intelligence that you go through I'm gonna say that because I do it, but like I think it's a sign of intelligence that you're able to envision different scenarios and it's it's defensive. It's all about our our protective mechanism in our body to like see what's possibly a threat so that we can protect our family, ourselves against those threats. But when we get to the point where we're living in that fear, the fear drives and makes those decisions. So this is for people who struggle with the what-ifs, anxiety, but most of all, confidence. People who are like, yeah, I want more confidence. That's today's talk is just for those people, I think. Don't you think?

SPEAKER_05 2:08

I do too. I do too. And I agree with you with the what if and the creative creative side and how our brains are wired. Our brains are wired. We were created to survive and to overcome and to solution. And so sometimes we can get really down on ourselves if this is something we feel is a weakness of ours. But let's, I love what you said, let's celebrate and see like the purpose in it. Like, no, this is something that could be made strong.

SPEAKER_03 2:30

Yes, the real quick story I'll tell before we jump in is this idea that um when I used to w work as a in a physical therapy university or was a student, I was working as a swim coach. So I had my own little swim coach business. I swam in high school, so I ran this little business um where I would go to someone's home and then like the kids would come over. And I learned a pattern. And the pattern was the kids who had no fear were the scariest because they would just like assume that I was gonna catch them when they jumped off the step and they would just smile and disappear into the black abyss, and I would have to pull them up. But they also learned to swim the fastest. But then you had the kids on the step, I believe, who were just super intelligent. And this is not a reflection of the other kids, but like the really intelligent kids would assess the environment and go, if I fall off the step, I die.

SPEAKER_01 3:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 3:18

And they were the most timid and the most difficult to get started. And so there was a ramp-up period. But once those kids were able to get a degree of confidence through their capability, they just took off. And they were the ones who became like technique-wise, so perfect. Like, so it's just an interesting thing to think about. So as we're talking about these elements, let's not, I want the audience not to judge their weakness and just really learn about how we can use it as a strength through Christ. So right.

SPEAKER_05 3:47

Both styles learned how to swim.

SPEAKER_03 3:48

They and at the end of the day, they're they're both safe in swimming.

SPEAKER_05 3:51

There's the outcome.

SPEAKER_03 3:51

There's the outcome. Okay, let's just jump right in. What are you, what were your thoughts?

SPEAKER_05 3:55

Yeah. So I was just thinking about times um in our lives that maybe we felt are turbulent or interrupted or very unpredictable. So you'd be thinking of one. I have one. But um years ago, Blake and I had flown to Hawaii, and we took this teeny tiny little airplane from one island to the next. And there was a storm, and the flight was delayed. We eventually get on the flight, and it was so scary. Like the the plane was all over the place. It was all of these dips. It felt like Knott's Berry Farm or like Magic Mountain. I don't know. It was not an airplane ride. And people were screaming.

SPEAKER_02 4:32

Oh no.

SPEAKER_05 4:33

Like terrified. And I was like, should I be screaming? Like, what actually is happening? And I we were expecting our third kid, like, kid at the time, and the what-ifs just started spinning in my head. And I was like, what if the plane goes down? What if something bad happens? What if I don't see my other kids back at home with grandma? And it was just this kind of spiral experience. Do you have a time that you've thought of that's turbulent?

SPEAKER_03 4:58

I'm trying to think of which time I didn't have a turbulent time. I've had so many moments where I've been super worried. Um, yeah, I think, you know, one of the biggest ones was um it's kind of a whole different episode. I hesitate on bringing it up, but um, the time where I was I was uh suspended from physical therapy school because the FBI was doing an investigation on me for for something I didn't do. Uh I won't go into that detail because I think it will derail the conversation. That will be a different episode. But I just it was a whole year where every day I wondered if I was gonna um be in massive debt and be expelled from university. Sure. It was really scary.

SPEAKER_05 5:31

Yeah, I remember hearing about that story. It's powerful. Um so I that story, the airplane, I had another one. We were at Lake Powell one year and we got caught in a storm, just like Lake Powell can. They come unexpectedly, and we're on this houseboat trying to find a beach for the week. And a storm comes in and it was total chaos. I mean, kids were running up and down the houseboat, they were screaming, yelling, mom, am I gonna die? And all of the dads were out trying to anchor us and jet ski. We were trying to do this. And I think about all of those scenarios, yours included, that there are times where the turbulence comes and it's completely out of our control.

SPEAKER_03 6:08

I've got another one. Go here's a big one that reoccurs to me all the time. It's health scares. Oh, so like so my sister had um had some GI issues, she has a colonoscopy. Turns out we're predisposed for for colon cancer, so we all have to get colonoscopies. And so every every time it's coming to mind because it's time for me to do another one. It's like instead of doing it when you're 45 or 50, you have to do it when you're genetically leaning. So just like those medical tests, or like you see a funny mole, or like for me, I think man, seriously, if if I'm I would I'm so glad I'm not an MD doctor because I would just be terrified all the time. I like constantly worrying about those elements. So yeah, those what ifs can really click in.

SPEAKER_05 6:49

Yeah. Tell me about that mole, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 6:52

You should be scared about that mole, ma'am.

When The Worst-Case Actually Happens

SPEAKER_05 6:54

So if we kind of have that in the framework and we think about these experiences where we have felt this turbulence, this uneasiness in our lives, it really sets us up for this contrast now that we're gonna see as we study our Savior Jesus Christ and the anchors that he provides for us to even in situations like that where we don't need to feel uneasy or scared or terrified. We don't need to play the what-ifs. But let's talk about him for just a little bit. Um, we're studying the talk Jesus Christ's Our Rock and Covenants Our Anchors by Eller Edward B. Rowe, November 4th, 2025, BYU. And I love how he starts talking about this. His audience is young adults. So some of his what-ifs are what if I lose a job? What if I don't get a job? What if I get sick? Those health scares, physical or mental health, what if that fails me? What if my marriage or my family doesn't turn out the way that I was hoping that it would? Um, or what if something bad happens, just generically, like anything.

SPEAKER_00 7:51

Sure.

SPEAKER_05 7:52

What if I don't get good grades? He even said, What if there's a fear? What if I go bald? Right? So remember his audience because that was just kind of um that was darling. But these can be like super real for us. I used to play the what if what if game like really well. I felt like it was my default thinking as a child, as a teenager, even as a young adult. Um, I felt like that's just how my brain thought. Like I was always, well, what if this? What if this happens? And I was reflecting on this, and um, I remember my grandpa being kind of aware of my thinking, right? I have a good friend, and she would call it stink and thinking. But he saw these patterns in me, and he would just kind of pull me aside and be like, Michelle, like stop worrying, stop playing the what if game. It's giving you stomach aches, and you're just like showing God you don't trust him. And it was kind of that like hard like moment, that reality that hit that generation. I loved how they like showed up because I did. I felt the love and the truth in that. I'm like, oh yeah, you're right. It's just I'm spinning here. And um, I'm missing an opportunity to maybe level up my faith. Um, I also remember my dad coaching me on this thinking, and one thing he would do is he would say, Michelle, play it out. Take your what if and like run with it. What if that actually happened? And at first I was like, Dad, that's so scary. Like, are you kidding me? You're mean. And it was so awesome as he would kind of like coach me through this process. We would finally get to a point, and no matter what the what if was, when whatever it was, um, it always came down to this. I knew in the end that I had a heavenly father who loved me and cared about my progress. I knew I had an older, very protective brother, Jesus Christ, who was working really hard to get me back to my heavenly father. Um, I also knew that I had the companionship of the Holy Ghost that was guiding me and helping me and whispering and taking my hand. And no matter what the what-if was, as I kept playing it out, it always came down to that scenario.

SPEAKER_00 10:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 10:03

And so then it kind of started changing the game. And then my dad would always say, And by the way, what are the odds? Or like your what if would actually happen. But I have a story. Okay. One of my what-ifs actually happened.

SPEAKER_03 10:15

Let's get into that. Because I think that's the thing is that we we all have these what ifs, and we know, like statistically, they're improbable, but our body can't tell the difference. When when we're thinking about the what-if, and this is true for anyone who doesn't know this, uh, is that when your brain is thinking about and imagining these what-if scenarios, because you're trying to protect yourself, your brain can't distinguish between seeing a bear and thinking about being attacked by a bear. So, like when you're thinking of those things, your body responds physiologically in a certain way, which precipitates certain decisions or emotions, which precipitates more physiological response. It's this negative downward spiral. So when we're in that space and we know logically it's not gonna really happen, but you're like, yeah, but it does occasionally. So what happens when it does occasionally happen?

SPEAKER_05 10:56

Yeah, it does occasionally happen. The same hormones dump in our body, and our body does have the kind of the same reaction. So for a long time, I also had some health what-ifs.

SPEAKER_01 11:06

Yeah.

Peace That The World Cannot Give

SPEAKER_05 11:06

And I don't really know where they stemmed from. And but one of them was related to around like my cognitive thinking and like, what if something happened to my brain or whatever? That was just a at a time like a very irrational fear. There was no history, there was no indicators that that would be the case until we had our third baby. And that is exactly what happened. We had complications a few days after we had um our third kiddo. And they were very scary complications. And I remember waking up after um being in the ICU, a lot of medical emergencies, and kind of coming to, and I was completely bewildered when Blake was there and this team of doctors and and these nurses were explaining to me what had happened. And I was like, this is almost funny, like this is my what if. Yeah, this was my fear, like my very fear. Here it is. And I really was for a little bit. I was just like, is this real? Yeah, like I have been dreading this and like trying to prevent this from happening, and it actually happened totally abruptly on its own. And so the what if happened, but here's what also happened through that experience. I did feel heaven around me. Even in like the total peak of the scare and the urgency and the medical emergency, like heaven was there. I cannot deny that. I felt comfort and peace that didn't did not make sense to me. Like when the doctors told me what happened, instead of having this panic and fear, there was peace. Um, I felt the spirit helping me be brave. I had to be brave, I had to heal. It took a long, long time. Like this wasn't just like, okay, my what if happened and the next day I was fine. Um, the peace came and it stayed with me because overcoming what happened and the way um my body got sick, it took a long time to heal and to trust and to get back into like good health again. And so I had that companionship with heaven the whole time. So then I came out of that and I remember Blake just chatting with me. He's like, Michelle, like you're what if happened? And he was like celebrating this, like not in the moment, like not painting him as the as insensitive. But he was, he was like, and look at you, like you're fine, you're getting through, you're overcoming. Yeah, and so going forward, there was that confidence. Like, oh, actually, I had my what if happened, and the savior was with me the whole time. And so then moving forward, it completely shifted that thinking in me. And I was like, oh, it doesn't matter. Those what ifs actually don't matter. Yeah, the negative ones because the outcome was so amazing. Um, it takes in my mind, my heart to John 14, 27. Um and I love how the savior describes peace. And it total I feel like it fits this situation that happened in my life and in my family. Um, the savior says, and he's with his, this is um the night of the Passover, and he's with his disciples, his dearest, closest friends, and he's trying to talk to them and teach them that actually I'm leaving. And they're not understanding, and you read through these chapters in John and you see this wrestle and how they're all trying to figure out, like, wait, where are you going? And can I come too? And then he just tells them throughout many times, but um, verse 27, he says, Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you, not as the world give it, but give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid. And you almost can sense like their uneasiness in this moment, right? What were their what ifs as they're trying to like figure out really what is being said here? And that's what he's telling them. Oh no, no, you're gonna have peace. And it's going to be a hundred percent different than what the world will offer you. It has to be different. Well, I believe that his piece has to feel so different in our life so we can see it. Because if it mirrored and was close to like the way the world is trying to like comfort us and soothe us, then we could maybe get confused and not see him. His piece has to look so night and day different than anything else the world could offer, so we see him in it. He's making himself recognizable in the fact that his piece will feel different. And it did for me in that situation. Nothing that I could ever come up with could have matched the piece and the thoughts that came to my mind. Um, in like my scariest moment. It was it was my savior, it was heaven comforting me.

SPEAKER_03 15:59

And it was a it feels like it was a little bit indescribable for you. Like 100%, yeah. Because like I'm guessing if you had known with 100% certainty going into that delivery that that was gonna happen, your anticipation for it, I can only imagine what that would have felt like. So for you to be in that place of like confidence and capability around the dealing of it because you felt that that spiritual gift. I I can see where it is different. You know, the world, what does world and the what does confidence in the from the world look like? It's described in this talk beautifully because it says, um, he says this during the talk when he's talking to the youth. He says, let's begin with a few words about confidence. What is your confidence based on? It's easy to look for confidence in all the wrong places. This is the world, like you said. If your confidence is based on what we believe others think of us, our ability to get likes or followers, or physical appearance, or ability to do something better than others, or how much money we make, or whether we accomplish a host of other things the world praises, then our confidence shall be shallow and fleeting. And so, like you said, for the savior to be able to show up in his confidence, his peace for us gives us confidence and know and discern the difference between the world and him, which is an overriding theme of his whole life, is understanding what's from him and what's not.

SPEAKER_05 17:16

Right. And and it's not fleeting, it's very um accessible and permanent and ongoing peace. And I mean that by looking back. Um, so that sweet kiddo is oh, 14 now. Yeah, that's how long it's been, and I still benefit from the peace that existed in that situation.

SPEAKER_01 17:38

Sure.

SPEAKER_05 17:38

Right? It's still living in my life. It builds that confidence for other heart situations I've had since then and will have in this life.

SPEAKER_03 17:46

Yeah, that's so powerful. And I think that it's so wonderful to think that we have access to that, but it begins with agency and understanding these things. I think we have to choose the savior through our covenants that we'll talk about in just a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 17:58

Definitely.

SPEAKER_03 17:59

So from from that point on, so you you really hit that beautiful point of like peace that the savior can provide, that he only he can provide. There's a big why in that. Like, here's the why. Yes. This matters so much is that we can find peace in those small health scare anxieties or those large tragic events. Mark Twain said it best. He goes, I suffered through many a tragic event in my life, some of which actually happened. It's like this idea of like, so whether or not we're actually going through trials or the perception and worry of trials, it matters not. Let your heart not be troubled, let nor let it be afraid. So um, I mean we should build into that direction a little bit.

Confidence Born Of The Spirit

SPEAKER_05 18:36

Yeah, I love where Elder Rowe takes this talk because it's going on that thought about the difference between the peace of the world and the peace that God offers us is found in covenant living. And that's what Elder Rowe is going to start talking about. He says in this speech or in this talk, there is another type of confidence, however, that is available to us. President Russell M. Nelson declared, when we make and keep covenants with God, so we're definitely going to dive into those two words. We can have confidence that is born of the spirit. That is the source of our confidence. A third member of the Godhead is now the source of our confidence is born. Our confidence is born of the spirit. Confidence that is born of the spirit is a confidence instilled in us. Doesn't that feel permanent?

SPEAKER_00 19:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 19:28

And just so carefully placed, like in us, but it's placed in us by God. It is a confidence that is not subject to the conditions of our lives because it's rooted in Christ through sacred promises. Here we go, made and kept. Um, can we talk about that? Yeah, made and kept.

SPEAKER_03 19:47

This this is a, you know, those are one of those that's one of those phrases that you hear and you go, yep, I get it, but man, I can't wait for you to explain this idea of making and keeping covenants because it just it brings it to a totally different level. So that's the secret, though, is that making and keeping covenants is how we get that peace instilled in us, that confidence within us. Because it feels like the peace is a byproduct of the confidence.

SPEAKER_01 20:08

It doesn't it?

SPEAKER_03 20:09

Like when the savior talks about I'm leaving my peace with you, he's talking about something that's permanent because we learn to trust it. Trust is the fund foundational element of anything valuable in relationships. And so for us to be able to trust that peace, it though he gives the how, which is the making and keeping of covenants. So what what do you have to say on those those elements?

SPEAKER_05 20:29

Right, because I feel like it can be easy to clump those together. We make and keep sacred covenants.

SPEAKER_03 20:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 20:34

Right? And sometimes we clump it together and it sounds wonderful, it is wonderful, but there is a really beautiful distinction when we go in and we look at those.

SPEAKER_00 20:43

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 20:43

Um, so if we kind of like define the terms a little bit, make and keep. Um, so sacred promises, we call those covenants. Um, I love being a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and I love that it is a covenant-making and covenant-keeping faith. Yeah, and so sacred promises are covenants, um, these increase our confidence. Um, I like to look at it too as like it's a round-trip ticket. Like our Heavenly Father, his whole plan is to get us back home. This is not a one-way destination. And so, to get us home, that ticket is we get access to covenants. So we are going to make them, we're also going to keep them. So um, Elder Road teaches us that these promises are made and kept. Sometimes we can, like I said, clump this together. So if we can think of an umbrella, and the umbrella, like the overarching part of the umbrella, is covenant relationship. Okay, so we're gonna start there.

SPEAKER_03 21:46

We're covered in that relationship.

SPEAKER_05 21:48

Yes. So let's see that as the relationship. And underneath that, we have the made and we have the key part of that relationship. So promises made. Right? That's the ordinant part, ordinance part. That's the part of the covenant relationship. Um, made is the ordinance, it's the action. Making is the action of entering into covenant relationship that points us to Christ. Making or made is done in baptismal fonts, it's done in temples. Made is done by using our agency. And every time we make and we're making a covenant, we are choosing to walk this life with Jesus. Made looks like an action. It's something we are doing. Um it's outward, even if it's symbolic, it's something that we do and making covenants are ordained of God. So examples to this are baptism, confirmation, partaking of the sacrament. Think about the due side of this, the outward side of this. Receiving our endowment, being still to your sweetheart in the temple. Um, this is the made side of that umbrella, that covenant relationship.

SPEAKER_03 23:01

Yeah. Yeah. The making, it's interesting because again, I think we feel sometimes that they're one thing. And so it's just like the physical act of the ordinance of the covenant, the ordinance part is just like the thing you do to kick it off, right? Like a little celebratory ceremonial start. But they are separate. They're connected eternally, but they are separate in their power. And I think that for me, what I've come to think about in this regard is that the power that we get just from the ordinance side, just the doing, the doingness of it, better stated, comes from the fact that I am a mortal being and an eternal being. And in that moment, I am able to express both of those things simultaneously.

SPEAKER_05 23:39

Oh, that's cool.

SPEAKER_03 23:40

So that the mind, body, and spirit, my soul, which is the combination of those three things, are in process of physically, literally, and spiritually entering into a covenant. It's that beginning step. And so we, like you've said, we only do that once, but there's unique power in unlocking the connection to heaven in just the action of it. So when we think about making and keeping, we really want to keep those things related, but also separate because that is a powerful way to kick into that spiritual connection to our Father, mentally, physically, and spiritually.

SPEAKER_05 24:14

Right, because it's all relationship. Remember that umbrella is relationship. Doctrine in Covenants 8420 helps us further understand this. Um, it says, therefore, in the ordinances thereof. So let's sometimes I have to like really dive into the synonym. So in the ordinances thereof, or in the making of the covenant, in the outward, in what we do, the power of God is being made manifest in our life.

SPEAKER_03 24:42

Just in the making.

SPEAKER_05 24:43

Just in the making.

SPEAKER_03 24:44

Not yeah, the keeping.

SPEAKER_05 24:45

We haven't even gotten there yet.

SPEAKER_03 24:46

Yeah, the keeping's over here still. We're in the making of it, and the power of godliness is manifest.

SPEAKER_05 24:51

And I so I think of the word manifest. If something's made manifest to us, it's revealed to us. It's given to us openly, it's visual for us, it's accessible to us. Now all of a sudden we see it, right? Manifest. Um, it's kind of this like opening or this unlocking. Um, my mind went to like an escape room, right? You kind of like go through these things, and I God is not a tricky God. Okay, so I don't completely want to make the analogy that like Yeah, he's behind the camera laughing.

SPEAKER_03 25:23

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But there is truth regarding the like connecting. Because he did this through parables, right? Like he wants us to exert mental energy and physical energy both and spiritual energy to create these connections because it's in the effort that we are drawing. That's the it's our agency. It's the only thing we really have, it's the only thing we do, is we use that to draw close. He makes it as as easy as possible, but he also wants us to learn. So he doesn't make it like you walk into a room and there's a key and a and a door.

Making Covenants Versus Keeping Them

SPEAKER_05 25:50

It's right, there's some steps. And covenant living is progressive. The covenants progress. We see that in the temple. Sure. We see that not only are they progressive in the nature that we make them, but they also progress us. And so, in the sense of that analogy of like the escape room, you kind of get to a point and you open up something and then you go again, and there's something else to be made manifest to you. You open another area of that, and more truth is revealed to you. So I love that idea that the making part is this opening, being made manifest to God's power, to the actual covenant, the promises in that.

SPEAKER_03 26:24

Yeah, I love that. And real quick, just to add to that analogy, I love the example of the the whole uh escape room piece because you're always you're never in there alone. No. You're in there with a you're with other people, and to me, that's a family. The family, whether it's it's the one we're born into or the one we choose to have that group of people that are cheering us on, that we're all in it together because we all want to go to where we're going together. I love that concept of like these ordinances are individualistic, but it's a family affair.

SPEAKER_05 26:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 26:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 26:50

And if you've ever done one, like why we just should say this. But you go and they have all these signs for you, like you did it, you made it, you won, and you accomplish it. I think it's the same thing. So this other side in the umbrella is this promises kept. So the keeping of the covenant. So we discussed the making of covenants. Now let's shift over to this side, make and keep. So talking about keep covenants. Um, a covenant or a promise or covenant kept is the living the covenant life. Um, remember, when we make it, that pattern is laid out for us. Now that revealed truth of how we get back home, how we live our life here so that we get back to the presence of God, that is revealed to us. Now the keeping is the living.

SPEAKER_04 27:35

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 27:35

That is the living portion. Um, keeping covenants looks like the manner in which we live because we have entered into a relationship with God and his son Jesus Christ makes this possible. Um, keeping also looks like entering into the promise, but staying there.

SPEAKER_03 27:52

Yeah, it's almost like saying what I'm gonna do and then doing what I said I was gonna do. It's that that those those two words right there define one word, integrity. And we think of integrity as like a good thing or a bad thing, you know, like if you're out of integrity, you're sinning. But the truth is integrity of a car isn't sinful. If it, if my car, if the engine is out of integrity with my car, it's because you can't trust it. It's not gonna function, it's not gonna get the car where it needs to go. And that's the whole point is that like integrity in this case is less about sin. We'll we'll maybe we can connect that connection later, but I want people to disconnect the idea of good and bad on this and think of it more as about like functional or not functional. Can you trust it? And if I'm not living my covenants, then I'm not gonna trust, I'm not gonna have the peace or trust as much. But if I am living my covenants, it's like an engine that works because then I can trust it and it's gonna get me where I'm going, which in this case is the celestial kingdom with my family, right? So so I I think it's important to recognize that the making of it is all about like saying what I'm gonna do. The the doing, the keeping of the covenant is the doingness of it over time. And I think that's and again, that engine in my case has broken down a number of times, and that's where repentance comes in. But at the end of the day, it's it's about just the uh the separation of those and how those work together. I love that.

SPEAKER_05 29:06

I love that, and as you said that it it takes my mind to something that I love President Nelson taught us. Um going back, the world will try and offer us that peace, like we talked about. But President Nelson said that staying inside our covenants, living inside a covenant relationship is safe. It's the place we want to stay. He said, um, whenever any kind of upheaval occurs in your life, the safest place to be spiritually is living inside. Inside your temple covenants. I love that analogy with the integrity. Like that is where we're going to feel confidence and safety. Um, kept um covenants kept involves both us and God, and there we see a relationship being built on the daily. It's just so beautiful. So making covenants is the ordinance, keeping coven covenants is living the covenant itself, living what we've agreed to, having trust in the promises that come with those prom with those covenants. And it's just such a beautiful relationship. An example of this, one example we can come up with many, is the ordinance of um being married, being sealed in the temple. So that happens, that's a moment in time, right? A very distinct moment in time, but the covenant is then the marriage relationship, which involves a husband and a wife and the savior. Um the ceremony happens, the covenant is lived every single day.

SPEAKER_03 30:40

And and and that's where the growth happens. You know, the the entering into the covenant, it unlocks the power of godliness. It's in that daily living in the marriage where where um the soulmates are created. I I this is a personal opinion. I'm sure there are people who were meant for each other, you know. I I'm a bigger believer in in soulmates becoming soulmates. And I think that's part of the covenant relationship. And so it's one of those things if anyone's ever experienced after being married for decades, it's like, oh, we're becoming one. We really are. And it it it's and it doesn't come without disagreements, confusions, frustrations. Did he really do that again moments? But those moments are um necessary. I think that's the thing we think about is like we think of those outpoints in in the living of the covenant as like a deviation from what should be wanted or needed, but we don't recognize that that's the gravity, that's the resistance and the strength training where the relationship gets forged. It's the heat of the fire, it's those moments where you just are so like concerned or frustrated, whatever, but it's the choices we make in those moments where we get to choose the covenant again and again and again. And sometimes it's easy and safe, and other times it's hard and a commitment, but either way, we find ourselves really bonding and developing that connection.

SPEAKER_05 31:58

Right, because the promises of the covenant are real, they are sure. We we don't make them lightly, we don't live them lightly, we were invited to not live them lightly.

SPEAKER_01 32:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 32:10

And if you think about that, I mean, just to be very real, like going back to the this um example of a marriage, it is, it's like coming together, and it's not always this like super easy all of the time experience. But I can speak from experience, and if a Blake was here, I know he would say the same thing that going back and remembering the promises that we made to one another and with God when we were married have gotten us through. Like that truth has carried us through some turbulent times, or some how do we work through this, or how do we come together, how do we kind of align? Um, going back, not separating ourselves from um the instruction of the covenant and the promises of the covenant, but actually pulling those in and being like, okay, we have to trust in this right now, and finding the peace and the confidence that comes from doing that.

Temple Worship And Proxy Work

SPEAKER_03 33:04

And there's just power in in like it's so sometimes there's a there's a process, but sometimes it's just power in the effort alone. Like I think about marriage, like the airplane example you gave, going from high island to island. Yeah, sometimes there can be serious bumps and people are screaming and like it's scary or or frustrating. And sometimes marriages can be one of the greater trials that we are given in this life. It depends on the relationship and the person. It's not a reflection of of their individual worth as much as just like what God wants us to experience. But all marriages go through turbulence, all marriages go through those challenges. And when we go to the temples and we're reminded of the end in mind, there's meaning. There becomes a purpose in the struggle. Um, I think I can't remember who said this, but there's a quote that I love that says that struggle without meaning is is suffering. Struggle with meaning is uh refinement. So when we have a meaning for the struggle and we why and we keep choosing that other person in Christ over and over again, there's an absolute refinement in peace and love that can be developed that has no words. But it doesn't happen organically, it happens uh on this moral journey through effort and continual. And without the savior, none of it could possible. So I'm not trying to maximize or minimum minimum uh maximize what our efforts is over his because sometimes he carries us. But we still have our agency and we have to keep choosing that covenant over and over again.

SPEAKER_05 34:25

Definitely, and I think we can get caught up if we look to the world again, looking for peace from the world. Whoa.

SPEAKER_03 34:31

We can get really not being married, using that analogy again, not being married, have a freedom to do whatever you want whenever you want, and like spend your money a certain way or whatever.

SPEAKER_05 34:40

Right, or even like what the world tells us marriage to look like.

SPEAKER_03 34:42

Oh, sure.

SPEAKER_05 34:43

That can cause turbulence. And we can think like, oh my gosh, I'm supposed to be living the dream, and it's supposed to look like this, and there's why picket fences and all of this. I love something that Sister Beck taught years ago that I've held on to. Is we can really give ourselves a disservice if we're here and we're like, I'm living the dream, like I'm here to live the dream. No, we live here so that someday we can truly live the dream.

SPEAKER_04 35:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 35:08

And so if that mindset is just helpful, it's not um pessimistic at all. It's just saying realistic. It's realistic, but because of covenants, we are given the path back. We are given like what our Heavenly Father wants us to experience and how he wants us to like overcome and handle different situations so that someday we will live the dream. Yes, which is living like eternal life.

SPEAKER_03 35:31

And we do get those moments of perfection in moments in life, they they totally exist from time to time. Yeah. And when we keep choosing it, that's where the Lord helps us see those moments and experience those.

SPEAKER_05 35:41

Right.

SPEAKER_03 35:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 35:42

Um kind of going on, so we've talked about this um covenant relationship, the making and the keeping side, and the beauty that exists there, how they do come together. Another part that I thought was so interesting as we came out of this was just this relationship about so going back again to that example, or any of the ordinances, the covenants that we make and the ordinances that we do or perform for ourselves, that's done once, right? Like I was baptized for Michelle, I was baptized myself once. And yet the temple offers us the opportunity to keep going back. And I love this. I was having a conversation with a friend this week and and and he taught me and he reminded me of this. He said, um, that when we go into Doctrine of Covenants 128-15, this is the this is one of the ways I believe that we are invited to keep going back, to to make temple attendance like a regularly habit, regular habit in our lives.

SPEAKER_00 36:42

Sure.

SPEAKER_05 36:42

Because in Doctrine of Covenants 128.15, it says, for we without them, meaning are dead.

SPEAKER_04 36:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 36:48

Um, for we without them cannot be made perfect, neither can they without us be made perfect. And I loved this conversation that we had that we need them. We need so when we go to the temple, if anyone's listening and they're wondering, like, wait, what are you actually talking about? When when we go to the temple and we make covenants for ourselves, that is done once for ourselves.

SPEAKER_01 37:11

Right.

SPEAKER_05 37:12

When we go back to the temple, we are actually doing service and we are by proxy doing that work for someone who has already passed on. And they have the opportunity to accept those blessings in the spirit world. We need them. We need that piece of paper with their name.

SPEAKER_04 37:30

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 37:31

So that we can go back and be reminded of our one time that we made those covenants, that they can become so relevant and so accessible in our minds, yes, to where we can access that, whether we're in the temple walls or we are outside. Like wherever we are, we have this remembrance of like what we did, and it happens as we keep going back on the regular. So we need them to go back in. And I think, and just as they need us to stand in proxy for them because they are not here right now, being able to have these ordinances performed in mortality for them. But I feel like this is really unique to the day in which we live. Yeah, these winding up scenes, these turbulent times. Um, I know I have relied so much upon remembering. There's been times where I've laid in bed at night, reciting the things I remember in the temple. There's times where that experience, in fact, that I shared early on, laying in an MRI tube and laying in a hospital bed and reciting um in my mind what I have learned in the temple and the promises that were mine are accessible to me, and the promises I've made back, and that has carried me through. That covenant living has has helped carry me through. In fact, um I so I I had this scare, and there was this window where I guess I was not conscious. And I just remember the experience that I had in that moment was you know, sometimes it's really hard to put into earthly language, yes, spiritual experiences that we have. Totally. We've talked about this before. And I just don't feel like language here on planet earth is sufficient to really like communicate. Yes, we need a different, yeah. So I'll try I'll do my best. But in that moment in that window where I was kind of coming in and out of consciousness and it was a little bit scary, what I was feeling was Michelle, you will be their mother forever. Because I knew my life was on the line a little bit, and yet in that moment, the spirit was teaching me that my family was forever. Those relationships, regardless of whatever this really turbulent moment in this few days was looking like, and how it would play out and what my life would be like on the other side of the storm, I was reminded of covenants that regardless of how this played out, I would be their mother, whether I was their mother on this side of the veil or heaven side of the veil.

SPEAKER_03 40:01

Wow.

SPEAKER_05 40:02

That's confidence and that's power.

SPEAKER_03 40:04

It is confidence. It's it's it's a confidence you can't describe. I mean, you did a great job articulating it as best you could, but I love the idea of how to feel that in your bones. How do you put language to that? I mean, it doesn't make sense, you know. It doesn't make sense with what we literally can see or not see, what's gonna happen when we die, it's all faith-based. So when you when you don't know and you're living on faith to feel that kind of support is uh a miracle, no question.

SPEAKER_05 40:28

That's what covenant relationship is.

SPEAKER_03 40:29

Yes, right?

SPEAKER_05 40:31

Um, so Elder Rowe, he gives us these really great analogies of how to keep building and understanding this covenant relationship.

SPEAKER_03 40:38

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_05 40:38

Should we go there?

SPEAKER_03 40:39

I love it. Let's get right into it.

Rock Climbing Anchors And Jesus Christ

SPEAKER_05 40:40

Okay, let's go. It's really good. So he gives this analogy of rock climbing. I'm not a rock climber, but you are.

SPEAKER_02 40:47

So was okay. I have not been back up.

SPEAKER_05 40:50

I can't wait to hear. Okay, so he talks about a climber, and obviously, you're going to hear all of the beautiful elements of this analogy play out, but he talks about a climber. This climber wants to reach the summit. Gravity is gonna make it tough, even perilous. The path up that rock is not going to be easy. It's going to be one foothold, one grasp, um, one careful step at a time. Now, along the path, there's gonna be anchors, right? These metal secure points that have this is the cold part, already been placed in the granite.

SPEAKER_04 41:26

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 41:28

I loved that part of his talk. Those anchors are already there. So as you're standing there and this climber is looking up to the top and that's his goal, he can see these anchors. They're already there.

SPEAKER_00 41:40

Right.

SPEAKER_05 41:40

They're not hidden. God is not tricky, he is not trying to hide things from us.

SPEAKER_00 41:44

No.

SPEAKER_05 41:44

Um, the climber secures himself with carab carabiners that clip to those anchors. We need to know that it's solid granite that he's climbing. The anchors are in this type of rock which makes them secure. The climber will climb and be secure, but the climber will also slip at times.

SPEAKER_04 42:02

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 42:03

It's part of the journey. He will slip. This isn't seen as failure. This is seen as a process. And this talk is great. He goes into that in in great detail. So because the climber is clipped, the falls get to be temporary. And he can keep climbing. He is even safe as he keeps trying over and over and over again. And he's gonna dangle sometimes and he's gonna fall and he's gonna spin. And as long as he keeps coming back to that rock face, that solid granite, that rock, and faces that and makes contact with that over and over again, he will summit. He will make it to the top. Um, and so I just love that. Um, Elder Rose says in this analogy, the summit represents exaltation, reaching Heavenly Father's presence in his highest glory. Gravity represents opposition that is essential to his plan. The many trials and temptations that come with life in a fallen world. Slips and falls symbolize our sins and flawed efforts. And boy, is that real. As imperfect climbers striving to learn how to overcome life's many challenges. Slips and falls are also inherent to his plan.

SPEAKER_03 43:16

It's part of the process.

SPEAKER_05 43:17

It's part of the process.

SPEAKER_03 43:18

It's not failure, it's process.

SPEAKER_05 43:20

It's process. And again, let's not get into this mindset of like, I'm here to live the dream. Right? Because we could easily tell ourselves, oh, the dream is like, I'm gonna just race up this monolith, I'm gonna climb this, or I'm gonna free solo this. Like, no, that is part of the process.

SPEAKER_03 43:37

Well, it's hard to when you're when you're climbing and you see other people having picnics on the ground. Or you see people that you think are who are supposed to be summing it with you, like you're judging, comparing other people the in the ward or in people around you, and it looks like they're having a picnic on the top of the summit and you're dangling from this carabiner and it hurts because it's like the strap around your waist and stuff, and it's like, yeah, I mean, those that's why we're never supposed to look. Around, we're supposed to stay keep our gaze on the on the rock because when we look elsewhere, the perception of that is how that feels, and it's just miserable.

SPEAKER_05 44:06

We can. We can get into so much trouble when we look sideways. If we look sideways and we bring people in and we're gathering, man, that's healthy. If we're getting ideas, but it can also be very dangerous too. The anchors are God's covenants, Elder Roe keeps saying, promises we make in sacred ordinance to help us and to guide our path. The carabiners symbolize our personal choices to make and keep these covenants, um, to connect ourselves securely to the rock. Yes. And most importantly, the rock is Jesus Christ, he says.

SPEAKER_03 44:35

Yeah, I love that piece too, the imagery of me being anchored to a covenant and slipping and that being part of the process. People go to the temple all the time, and then they go home and they make a mistake and they mess up. Again, they do the thing they were trying not to do, and maybe some of those things seem small, but they feel heavy, and some of those things are heavy. And either way, the adversary loves to come in. I think part of what's missing from this analogy is that you have somebody else who is in your ear the whole time saying, You can't do this. Oh, you slipped, you loser. Oh my gosh, look at everyone else picnicking. Oh my goodness, you're too look how you're trembling on the mountain. You don't have the strength, you don't have the capability. And I think that's something we always have to keep in mind during these challenges is that there's an there's there's gravity, and gravity is natural and occurring. It's gonna happen no matter how righteous you are. And there's an actual like entity that exists that's trying to pull you off outside of gravity that's in your ear, just trying to mess with you in your mental game. And so for us, as we get closer and we can feel the the rock of our savior in our lives, we have power to push that out of our heads. We have the power to stop what-ifing and just be in the moment right then, holding on. And as we look upwards on the mountain and only focus on that gaze, we that sound in our head goes away or quiets. And so that's an important thing to note here for me, just because I know that he's a real uh influence in my life for sure.

SPEAKER_05 46:02

I love that. Will we took our kids to Yosemite um several years ago when it was COVID, yeah, and vacations were really tricky and limited. And we went and we stared at these monoliths and we looked at LCAP, and Blake brought his scope and binoculars, and we sat, we were down in the field, and it was so fascinating to to look through these lens and see the climbers, they were facing the rock. Yes, that's how you climb is facing that rock. And I love how you said that we make um contact with it. Um Moses 753 teaches us this. Um, he says, I am Messiah, the king of Zion, the rock of heaven, which is broad as eternity. And if you've seen these in most Yosemite, oh man, half dome, all of these insane rocks, they are. They are so broad. They are so broad. And and remember that rock, Elder Ro taught us, that rock is Jesus Christ. We need to understand how large and how big he is in our lives. Um uh this verse continues to say, Whoso cometh in at the gate, that's covenant. Yes, that's making covenant, okay, cometh in at the gate and climbeth up by me shall never fall. So we watched, yeah. Did you try clapping?

SPEAKER_03 47:23

I kind of like, yeah, I didn't mean to. That was just me like responding to the power of that message.

SPEAKER_05 47:28

No, this is an anthem. And it's so beautiful because we can, again, that that voice in our, you know, of the adversary that's trying to like really have us focus on the fall or the slips. Um, this is complete opposite. Our savior is promising us that as we come into covenant living and covenant relationship, we're gonna climb next to him. So think about those climbers. They were facing the wall. They were holding on to the wall. And we can often think, I know I've done this at times, it's like, oh, when I sum it, that's when I'm going to see the hand of God in my life. Yes. That's when I'm gonna see his workshop. When I'm on the top. When I'm on the top, and then I can look back and then I'll for sure see his involvement here or there. And he's like, uh-uh, Michelle. Uh you're climbing with me. I'm next to you this whole entire climb. So we can be confident in Covenant Living as we're clipping in. There he is, every single time. We don't have to wait to sum it. We get to experience him during the climb.

SPEAKER_03 48:32

Yes, and experienced climbers, it's so fun. Because although I don't climb now, I used to work, I used to, you know, climb with some very experienced climbers. They don't like it when they fall and they have to have their rope caught by uh an anchor and a carabiner. It's not pleasant. It's it's like we get this idea that like, you know, but here's the difference. People who are hanging there and looking down and just, you know, sobbing and crying. And I'm not judging that, I'm just saying that like you're just not progress. It just takes longer. People experience rock climbers, they they fall, they scream, ah, and then what do they do? They get right back on the mountain, and but they never, here's the dis here's the deal. I think the reason they keep going back over and over again, mountain after mountain, is because they have the confidence. Yeah, they're not worried about dying. They're they're uh they're aware of it enough to make sure that they're carabinered into the anchors, period. They check their gear, they do these things because they know it's a risk. But when they're on the mountain, yes, they have their challenges, but they're also enjoying the process. They're finding joy in the journey. They're looking over their shoulders, they're talking to each other. They're there, it's an experience of like connection and and and I used to love it. I used to love it. I I've lost my love for it, as you know, but it's for a lot of people, it's incredibly useful because as this analogy occurs, it's like the summit is gonna be unbelievable. And I don't even know what that's gonna be like. But to be on the mountain, to be with the savior right there, there's so much power in that. And then if we're with families and people that love us who are like experienced like your dad, who's like, oh, I've been at that part of the mountain before.

SPEAKER_05 50:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 50:02

They call it prospect or projecting.

SPEAKER_05 50:04

That's what it calls it.

SPEAKER_03 50:05

Projecting a route. An experienced climber, when they're like studying the different routes up and they're not sure which route to take, they try one and they flip and then they slip and then they try another and they slip. That projection that we call failure is really where the mental and physical learning occurs. And to have experienced climbers like your dad and others in our worlds, people say, Hey, you know, I've done this before, this is what I've done, but maybe you should, you know, like they give us some ideas of what they can do, but it's really ultimately us and the savior that connection that matters the most.

SPEAKER_05 50:31

I love that. That's so great. Anything else you want to talk about?

When You Fall Without A Rope

SPEAKER_03 50:34

Yeah, so um I just want to say the one story I thought that was missing from this was what happens when you do fall and you don't have any ropes and carabiners. You know, we call that death, right? Spiritual death. And I've been through a mountain climbing accident, as every listener here has heard probably a million times. But when I was 17, I just for the few who haven't heard this, when I was 17, um, on a Friday the 13th, I was rock climbing without ropes or carabiners without any of that. That was a choice that I made. I was gonna sum it without any of those secure points, and I slipped and I fell. And because I wasn't anchored to a mountain that would have protected me, I fell 50 feet, five stories of a building, and broke both arms, both legs, 21 bones of my body. And so I think there's just a beat I want to say about people when they do fall and truly fall. Uh, we're not talking about the slips, we're not talking about the chances to get back on the mountain immediately, we're talking about severe injury spiritually. Is having gone through a physical manifestation of that experience, I can tell you it was the most painful part, the most physically painful experience I've ever been through. 11 surgeries ever since then. I laid there alone for five hours, mentally knowing I was gonna die. So spiritually and mentally, it was incredibly taxing in a way that I can't put words into it. And yet, and yet, because I didn't die, because although death was there at my hands, I was rescued. I was literally rescued by a mountain rescue team. The savior comes there too. The savior comes when we do, if we ever are truly fallen and broken, the savior comes. He anchors you to his helicopter in my case and takes you to his hospital. And the hospital is such an interesting experience, and we all go to the hospital spiritually. Um it's called sacrament meeting. Yeah. And when we go there and we receive the treatment through the sacrament, we heal, and our my bones healed, and my muscles healed, and I I learned to walk again. And uh, this was a process, it was a very timeful process. But here's the thing I want to really highlight is that the savior shows up when we truly are fallen and broken. But this is the power of the atonement, and this is the one thing I wish people would know, and I want my kids to hear this really loudly is that I didn't just learn to walk again and be able to climb again. The atonement transformed that mistake into glory in a way that I can't put into words. It became my profession. It became, I became a physical therapist. Day after day for decades, I would spend time in treatment rooms with patients who had physically fallen and hurt in different ways. And my ability to empathize with them created so much connection and healing that I look backwards now to that day when I was 17, I'm almost 50 now, and it was one of the greatest experiences of my life. The atonement allows us, no matter how broken or fallen you may feel in your life, to take whatever you're suffering with, whether it's a massive loss of people you love, whether it's a trial in a marriage, whether it's a child of your own that's struggling and feeling lost, that there is purpose in that. The atonement will transform that and allow you to sum it at a level later that you will be grateful for the experience, even though it was a mistake to not climb without ropes in my case, right? That's the power of the atonement. It doesn't just like make even, it blesses in abundance. Um and it's worth it. Just for anyone who's in that state to have hope and that just keep going day after day, because it's worth it. Yeah. All right, Michelle, back to you.

SPEAKER_05 54:10

Well, I'm never tired of hearing about that story. And I know that you mentioned that it's that it blessed you, that experience blessed you professionally and spiritually, but um I think it's important to share and let you know that that story and what you've become because of it, and what you've been able to share about your Savior Jesus Christ because of that has blessed many that have heard that testimony and who have needed to understand that there is hope. Um I feel like the adversary wants us to look at that. If we're the climber looking up, whether we're Clipton or or in this situation and whatever it is, he wants us to feel that it's daunting.

SPEAKER_00 54:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 54:48

I think he wants us to feel that the covenant path is complicated or out of our reach or that we need to walk it perfectly. Those emotions bring so much discouragement and can really stall us even. And yet I love how you highlighted that our Savior and His love and the atonement that he performed on our behalf allows us to keep clipping in every time. The equipment will never not be accessible to us. Ever. Those harnesses are readily available. The ropes, the anchors. He's not hiding from us. He doesn't want us to fill daunting. He wants us to even, even enjoy the climb.

unknown 55:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 55:40

Um that's why the mountain was put there in the first place. Why why do men exist? What was the what's the purpose of God's that we might experience joy, right?

SPEAKER_05 55:48

Like, men are.

SPEAKER_03 55:50

That's why we exist.

SPEAKER_05 55:51

Um, I feel like we can't talk about rocks and our Savior Jesus Christ without talking about Hill in 512.

SPEAKER_04 55:58

Let's go.

SPEAKER_05 55:59

So here we go. And now, my son, and now my sons, remember, remember that it is upon the rock of our Redeemer, who is Christ, the Son of God, that ye must build your foundation. That when, not if, okay, so let's not be cut unaware and let's not be like nervous or anything. Like we're here in mortality. We have way more power. That's what the I love that the temple teaches us, that the power that we have in comparison to the power that the adversary has in our lives. Like, I teach my seminary students this. Like, if you can squish your fingers together and still have space, but almost not that in comparison to like Elasticle from Incredibles, and your arm like goes forever. Those in comparison, that is what the temple has taught me, is that is how much influence, actually, in comparison, Satan has. This tiny little tiny minuscule in comparison, as we make covenants and access God's power in covenant living, it's so far reaching. It's so far for so he says, and when the devil shall send forth his mighty winds, don't get afraid about that. Yea, his shafts in the whirlwind, and when all of his hell and his mighty storm shall beat upon you, you it shall have no power over you to drag you down to the gulf of misery and endless woe, because of the rock upon which ye are built, which is a sure foundation, a foundation whereon if men build, they cannot fall. And I love what you shared. There are times when we fall, right? And this is teaching us that we just keep getting to that foundation. We keep finding the rock face. Yes. We keep connecting ourselves to Jesus Christ. Um, I had an analogy, another visual analogy again, but I loved a few years ago that movie Twisters that came out. I thought it was so fun.

SPEAKER_03 57:48

Totally. And the original was great. The second was so fun. It was just fun.

SPEAKER_05 57:52

It was just one of those like, feel good, you know, take your family to the movie. Totally. And anyways, I loved this scene as we're talking about turbulence, and there's this scene where the twisters coming in, the tornadoes coming in, and there's this big red truck. Okay, and this is Helum and 512. There's this big giant red truck, and I don't know what they're called. Um chasers, tornado chasers? Okay, okay. And so you see this red truck come in, and they say in the middle, they're trying to get into the middle of this tornado and this twister. And then all of a sudden he presses this button, and these um, oh, I forgot what they're called, but those drills.

SPEAKER_03 58:32

Yes. Oh, anchored into the ground. Yes, that's right. They drill into the ground. Like I thought that was so cool. That it would just come out of the truck, go into the earth, and it like secured them to the wild, wild.

Helaman’s Rock And Storm-Proof Connection

SPEAKER_05 58:41

So now this truck has contact with the ground. Yeah, it's drilled itself down and it is just locked in. And then this twister comes and the rock is, you know, it's a little bit rocky, or the truck is a little bit rocky, but nothing happens to it, and then it passes and it's fine. And I love that analogy in my mind because um President Uchdorf has taught us this. A house doesn't survive in a storm because the house is strong. It also doesn't survive just because the rock is strong. The house survives the storm because it is firmly attached to that strong rock. It's the strength of the connection to the rock that matters.

SPEAKER_03 59:19

I hear, I hear you don't have to be strong in that. I hear that your connection because the savior's strong enough.

SPEAKER_01 59:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 59:25

Like it we don't have to worry about being brave and worrying about the thing because at the end of the day, he's strong enough. We don't have to worry about how am I gonna handle this if this should happen. Authentically, I worry about my parents in their older age. It's just, you know, you start worrying about like I don't have forever with them. And I worry about like how am I gonna handle that? It's like I don't have to worry about that experience because there's an anchor that I am anchored to. And it I don't know how it will happen, but I'm confident that as hard as that will be, because it doesn't say in Helaman 512, when the when the devil sends his mild frustrations and irritations, he says the hell. He uses the word hell. Like, so just here, like it's oh if you're having hell, welcome to your experience on earth. We're all going through a version of it. And because of that rock anchor, there's a piece that cannot be described with words that will set into our hearts that will take over, and we can trust it to the way that twister car is anchored to the ground and a well, there's that relationship piece.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:21

Relationship that little space right there is our covenant living. That's our relationship, that's the connection. And so then going back to where we started with this confidence, um, knowing, like, I want to say you almost had a little bit of a what if there, Will, as you talked about your parents.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:38

Like, what will that look like? Or what if this plays out this way? What if I can't handle it?

SPEAKER_03 1:00:44

I'll tell you directly. What if I can't mentally see? What if it crushes me? What if it crushes me and I don't know how to recover mentally? Like, literally, it's like one of those things I think about.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:52

And yet, what if, let's let's spin it a little bit, like what if in that experience, because that time will come for each of us. Yeah. What if that's where you find God more? Because what if in those moments, because of this relationship, this connection, you have even more awareness of covenant living and the promises. Remember, covenants are promises with God.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:24

And so what if what if you find more truth and more um relevancy in covenant living in that situation? Wow. Right? We can twist them a little bit, just maybe in wrapping up. One more analogy, is that okay for the case?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:38

Alright, please do.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:40

Um we were talking about covenants in seminary one day, and um this image came to my mind, and it's kind of similar to what we talked about already, but also a little tiny bit different. But I had a rope, and in my brain I saw this rope, and on one end would be each of us covenant makers. All of God's children will have the opportunity at some point to enter into covenant relationship. Okay, this is this will be accessible. Yes. That's why we have temples, that's why we're doing temple work. Um, by the way, my daughter just went to the Linden, Utah open house this week in New Temple.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:18

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:19

Um, she called me the next day and said, Mom, this is so cool. There are two baptismal fonts in this. Okay, so that's exciting right there because the work is progressing. It's happening. Okay, so going back, we have this rope and we are at one end. And and President Nelson loved to call this the covenant path. So if you think of us on one end of this rope, and we take the other end of the rope, sometimes we can get a little confused. What is that other end of the rope actually connected to? There's been times, and it's okay going back to way the way our brains spin. I've tried to solution or figure this out. There's been times where I'm like, well, is it tied to a covenant? Is it tied to my temple worship? What is the other end? If I'm walking on the covenant path and that is the rope, I hope this isn't confusing.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:06

No, it's great.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:07

What is the other end actually connected to? Let me say it differently. Who is it connected to? So let us remember that as we walk the covenant path, that rope is connected to heaven. It is connected, we are making covenants with our heavenly Father, and it is our Savior Jesus Christ that is bringing us back to Him, and we have the Holy Ghost guiding us. So every covenant that we make along the covenant path, let's tie a knot in the rope visually. So we make the first one, and now all of a sudden you have this hold, this grip, this knot, this point along the covenant path that now is visible.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:45

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:46

You can look back and be like, hey, something happened there. Something really special happened there. That was maybe baptism, like if we want to start there. And then we keep making covenants and we keep making these knots. And it was really great to have this discussion with my seminary students. I'm like, well, what's happening to the rope? Because we did this in class with an actual rope. And they're like, well, it's easier to hold on to. Now I have these grip points similar to the anchors. Yes. I have these grip points along the covenant path, and they could visually see this path. My favorite comment was this Sister Bentley, the rope is getting shorter. Because every time a knot was made, it was taking up that space. And and we had the student in the back and a picture of the savior in the front, and the rope got shorter. And they were able to say because of covenant living and because of covenant making and keeping, I am getting closer to Christ.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:42

Wow.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:43

That is covenant relationship.

What If Christ Is Right

SPEAKER_03 1:04:44

Yeah, I love this. Michelle, this has been such a phenomenal talk. I will tell you that the one thing I just want to share before I we we wrap up is just this idea of confidence and being able to trust it. And we talked at the beginning about what-ifs. You know, what if this happens, what if this happens, and what if this happens? And when I shared that example of my parents' fear, how you shared a different what if, I had a really strong impression I wanted to share with the audience. So whenever you guys are hearing things about like, what if this horrible thing happens or what if this goes on or whatever? But yes, and I want the next question that we choose to be, but what if Christ was right? What if Jesus was right the whole time? What if this is real? What if this is real? Like the covenant things, all the things we've talked about in general conference, what if this is actually real? And let that shift our brain. When we fly with anxiety on planes, this is an actual thing that you're supposed to do. If you're getting turbulence and your brain's like, what if we crash and die and your body starts physiologically responding? You're supposed to tell your brain, hey, listen, I'm not scared, I'm just excited to go where I'm going. It completely changes your physiology. I've done this, it's a hack, it's unbelievable. So next time there's turbulence in our life, we're like worried about what if it happens. What if Christ is right? What if this is gonna make me happier? What if this is gonna teach me something that's gonna be useful? What if I come closer to Christ? What if that rope shortens? And when we teach confidence outside of the church, I still think it's applicable. It's called the four C's. The four C's of confidence. It starts with making a commitment. The commitment is doing, we're gonna do something that we think is scary. We're gonna start that's entering to me, that's the ordinance. We're entering into baptism. That's a commitment that we make. The next is courage. The courage has to come because now we've committed doing something that was scary to do, and maybe that's get a degree. Maybe that's something else. Like whatever that might be for us, the courage comes in in the covenant living. But what happens along the path, so those first words, commitment and courage, to me that's the ordinance, the making, and the keeping or the covenant living. The third C is capability. We don't have to worry about our capability, but we do develop capabilities. It's kind of the reason we're here. And in our capability, in this case of trusting the covenants, we get to the fourth C, which is confidence. As our capabilities rise, our confidence grows. And that's how you see President Nelson when he was alive lose a daughter on a day and give a talk the next day, is because he knew where he was anchored. He knew the rock upon which he was building his house. Michelle, as we wrap up, I'd like to do a rapid fire set of questions to you. You ready? Ah, sure. Um what is what is something you're confident in now in life? It doesn't have to be spiritual, but something you're confident now in you that you weren't confident in as a teenager?

SPEAKER_05 1:07:27

Oh, that's a good question. Um, I would probably say a couple things come to my mind, but if I go back and I look at Teenage Michelle, yeah. Um I wanted to be confident. Um, confidence looked enticing to me. I can't say that I was at that time, I would not profess to have been super confident. Um, but I was developing in confidence, so I think that's what I'd want to say now that it's a process with any attribute that we want to develop to become more like our Savior Jesus Christ. Um I love that we are giving gifts and we're giving talents and things that make us special and unique and make us like um our Savior Jesus Christ and allow us to connect with Him and have similarities with Him. But I also love that we can ask.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:21

And if there's areas that we feel like we're lacking in, we can ask. And I did ask for more confidence. There have been times where I have pled for greater confidence in knowing God's awareness of me. That was a very um not, it was repet a very repetitive phrase at a certain time in my life when I was trying to kind of overcome this what if thinking was um I just wanted to have confidence that he was aware of me, that he was aware of my needs and aware of my concerns and aware of the little things and the big things. And I don't ever want that um desire to expire.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:02

And so I want to keep growing in that confidence, but developing that in asking for it and then looking for it. It I just am just so excited to know how involved he is in our lives. It's kind of fun to be. We were joking when we started that we both have our readers, yeah, our glasses sitting here because it it's really awesome to be this far into mortality and to look back to see this climb as as we've talked about, and to be able to look back and see those moments where I felt confident, to fill those moments where I haven't, and he's caught me, where he's been so kind and said, Let's climb again. Yeah, I'm right here. Um, you're gonna be okay. And you might do this climb eight times. This little tiny portion of this mountain. I don't know, maybe it was like one foothold, but it took me, it took me time to overcome that what-if thinking, and it's turned into like you said, I have now this just desire to play on the what-ifs. What if it's something great?

SPEAKER_03 1:10:06

So your confidence has risen around just any insecurity in general, it sounds like, because your ability to play the what-if game in reverse.

SPEAKER_05 1:10:14

And knowing that like my confidence can't be built by myself.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:17

Yeah, it's okay, it's not necessarily up to us to just figure it out. Like the savior, that's what grace is. He gives that to us.

Rapid Fire Confidence And Temples

SPEAKER_05 1:10:24

Absolutely. Absolutely, and just to know that he is helping me build confidence in and it's it's confidence in him. And when we have confidence in him, he allows us to grow in confidence in our own abilities and our in our own ways to build the kingdom and just show up and and hopefully um learn from others and to hopefully contribute to others. But I I think I've learned to sorry, that was a long answer to your question. But I think I'm learning how to let God help me write my what ifs.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:56

Okay. What's something that you're confident in doing now, like a talent that you've developed uh now that you didn't have back when you were a teenager?

SPEAKER_05 1:11:03

Okay, non-spiritual?

SPEAKER_03 1:11:04

Non-spiritual.

SPEAKER_05 1:11:05

Oh. Um Will. Let's see. Take your time. Um I'm pretty good on a snowboard, and that took a long time.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:15

Let's go! Okay, great. Next question. What's your favorite? Where's your favorite temple?

SPEAKER_05 1:11:19

Oh, my favorite temple?

SPEAKER_03 1:11:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:11:23

Hong Kong.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:24

Hong Kong? Have you been there? No. Okay. Love it. Why?

SPEAKER_05 1:11:32

I will never forget the first time I saw a picture of the Hong Kong Temple. Looked different than most temples I'd seen yet in my life. I was so intrigued with like the flat top, which actually does look a little bit like Mesa, but I when you see a picture of the Hong Kong Temple, you just see it. You don't see anything around it. So then I did a little bit more research. And then you see that it's like implanted in the middle of like all of these city buildings. Guys, I haven't been there, so I'm sure people are like, wait, she might be wrong. But from what I can tell, it's just, it's like land is so scarce there. Yeah. And so hard to come by. And so I just love this thought of that temple, because where I live and most of the temple I've seen, the landscape is large and like the grounds are part of the experience.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:15

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 1:12:16

I want to go there. I want to go to the Hong Kong Temple, but it looks like it is just this like here I am. I'm right here in the middle of all of this, and it's just like super straight, upright. Like it's just this, like, so I've been so intrigued by that and like what that represents.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:31

Okay, love that. Um, my next question is usually I'm doing this rapid fire thing now, and so like usually it's like, where in the world would you want to go? I already got where you're going, you're going to Hong Kong. Okay. So the last question is um, you brought up confidence in marriage and you have adult kids.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:44

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:45

What would you want your adult kids to know and your like descendants to know and when they get to that marriage age? How do you develop confidence in a partner to get to know that they're the one? Like, how do you get confidence to know that you're picking the one person you should spend the rest of your life with? And I'm sure this could be a whole other episode. So I'm gonna challenge you to try to keep it down to like a handful of points. Um, but what would you say to them?

SPEAKER_05 1:13:12

Have you seen Blake?

SPEAKER_02 1:13:19

Done.

Reviews And Where To Follow

SPEAKER_03 1:13:20

Okay, well, guys, um she just mic dropped on the last question. Thank you so much for for listening to Temple Bound. We're so grateful for the way that you made it to the end of this episode. Please make sure that when you get a chance to go online and leave a review. Uh, we're so grateful for the growth that Temple Bound has had, and it really is up to you guys if you can leave reviews and share these episodes. If it meant something to you, it would really mean the world to us. Michelle, thank you so much for taking time to be on Temple Bound.

SPEAKER_05 1:13:45

Thank you for having me. This is always a highlight, and I always leave just feeling so motivated and encouraged. So thank you for all that you're doing here.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:51

Okay. Guys, thanks again for tuning in until next time. Thanks again for listening to today's episode of Temple Bound. If you enjoyed today's show, make sure to join us over on Instagram at Temple Bound Podcast to receive additional information as well as previews of our upcoming episodes. See you over there.