How the Temple Unlocks the Atonement with Cameron LaDuke

Most of us are taught to view the Atonement through a "legal" lens: we owe a debt, we can’t pay it, and Jesus steps in as our defense attorney to satisfy an angry judge. But what if that transactional model is actually blocking us from a deeper connection with God?

In this powerful episode of Temple Bound, host Will Humphreys sits down with Cameron LaDuke, a scholar of Ancient Judaism and Religious Studies, to flip the script on how we view the Atonement. Cameron shares how his own "mental block" regarding God’s justice led him on a 20-year journey to discover a more beautiful, transformational model hidden within the temple endowment: The Creation Model.

Together, they walk through the symbolic geography of the Tabernacle—from the "lone and dreary world" of the outer courtyard to the Holy of Holies—explaining how every step of the temple is designed to transfer God's "glory" (His actual essence and power) back into our lives. If you’ve ever struggled to see the Savior in the creation story or felt that repentance is just about "getting back to zero," this episode will change how you experience the temple forever.

Key Takeaways

• The Problem of "Courtroom" Theology: Why viewing God as a "debt collector" can hinder our love for Him and how the temple offers a more merciful alternative.
• Atonement as "Re-Creation": How the Savior uses the same power He used to organize the earth to organize the chaos and darkness in our individual lives.
• The "Coat of Skins" as Mercy: A deep dive into how God’s first act after the Fall was an act of protection, covering us in His own goodness (Grace).
• The Symbolism of the Altar: Understanding the "Altar of Sacrifice" and the "Altar of Incense" as physical representations of the Savior’s proximity to us in our fallen state.
• The Veil as a Rescue Operation: Why the "Sentinels" at the veil aren't there to keep us out, but to ensure we are physically prepared to handle God's glory without being destroyed.

Resources Mentioned 

• Cameron’s Original YouTube Presentation 

Transcript

Cameron’s Question About Suffering

SPEAKER_01 0:05

When four different people send you the same YouTube video, you pay attention. That's how today's guest found his way to Temple Bound. Cameron Leduc spent 20 years wrestling with one question: Why did Jesus have to suffer? And the answer took him through a master's degree in ancient Judaism, deep into the book of Leviticus, and straight into the heart of the temple. What he found completely changed how he sees the atonement. And by the end of the episode today, it might change the way you see it as well. Let's get into it. Cameron, welcome to Temple Band. I'm so excited for this discussion today about the atonement in temples. Could you set the stage a little bit on your background as to what got you interested in this?

SPEAKER_00 0:42

Yeah, so for me, I'm kind of as we were talking pre-show, right? I'm more of a head before a heart kind of guy. Like something things have to click in my brain before it can filter into my heart and I can believe. And I actually don't think that's a good quality. I think I see it as somewhat of a defect. Um, so for whatever reason, I maybe it's not a defect, maybe it's also a gift in a sense. But because of that, um, I had this mental block about Heavenly Father and justice and the atonement. And basically, I felt like it was hard for me to have the kind of faith I wanted to have in Heavenly Father, to have the kind of love for Heavenly Father that I wanted to have, if he was going to be um the symbol of justice, you know, and a lot of times authoritative. Yes, authoritative, yes. Yeah. And the way we talk about it a lot of times in the church is Jesus is the nice one and he's mercy and kindness. And Heavenly Father, he's the He's the one that Jesus has to appease, you know, and make make okay with forgiving us with sin. And it didn't work for me because um I just know from having my own children that um I don't need someone else to persuade me to forgive them. I want to forgive them. I'm ready to forgive them. I I want them, I want to give them everything I can possibly give them. The only thing that ever gets in the way is is maybe my own defects and flaws, but but also theirs. Agencies.

SPEAKER_01 2:03

Like they have their own choice around this. And so it was I love this because I think it is a gift. I think it's a different spiritual gift, Cameron, because some people just feel it deep emotionally and they can connect to that spirit, the music of the gospel, as they say. But others and people in my life I mentioned who I love dearly, it's there's a logical element to this that is a spiritual gift that needs to unlock prior to some of the emotional connection. And I think there's so many people in the church who are like, thank you, Cameron. That thank you for feeling that way, because that's how I I approach it, right? Everyone's got their own unique element to how they experience uh their relationship with the Savior and the gospel of Jesus Christ. And there's similarities in groups, and I think you represent a lot of people. And it I think it's unlocked a lot of great knowledge for all of us, regardless of how we gain our testimony in that space.

SPEAKER_00 2:50

Well, thank you. I appreciate that.

SPEAKER_01 2:51

And so how does that what did that what did that lead to? Because basically, here's how we we found you is that you've been giving uh in in a stake setting, you've been talking to young single adults about teaching them about atonement and the temple and how those things are connected. And that's what the show's about today. Yeah, is how can we better understand the atonement through the temple? But how did that get started? Like, how did you end up going on a series? Because I your your um YouTube video came to me through four different individuals. And it was like, okay, so what's how did that start?

SPEAKER_00 3:21

Yeah. Well, like how did I start on the path of trying to understand the temple or the atonement in the temple or yes, and yes. Yeah, so I mean it started, it started when I was a teenager. One of my first questions was is the Book of Mormon true. And then when I really got a testimony of that, for whatever reason, again, I I'm not sure why it happened this way. As I look back, I think it maybe was divine providence, but I had almost like a question planted in my brain, why did Jesus have to suffer? And and so I started pursuing that question. And as I pursued it, I got answers, some really good answers. And then I went through a dry spell of not getting answers for what I would say, I don't know, 20 years or so. It was 19 to 39. Um and in that time I struggled um with these the issue I was mentioning to you. But in order to try to get answers to that, I wanted to go deeper into the scriptures, into the Bible, and those kinds of things. And so I studied religious studies as an undergrad at ASU, and then I went um to graduate school and got a master's degree in like ancient Judaism. And the whole while, even though I was studying these things like biblical studies, my whole purpose really was to try to understand the atonement. And so, but as I studied ancient Judaism and these things, uh temple uh topics just kept coming up in in the course of interesting, yeah. And so over time I was able to start to bring those things together, like marry them together. And the main thing that kind of clicked for me was um that when you go to the temple, we're often told you go to the temple to learn about the atonement, and it's really hard to see the atonement in the temple, I think.

Leaving The Debt Payment Model

SPEAKER_01 5:02

It's like what you said earlier when before we hit record this idea of like to see the fall, super easy. Yeah, but the atonement, there is a mention of it. Yeah, but how how do you deeply understand the atonement from the way that the temple experience is currently you know structured?

SPEAKER_00 5:16

Yeah, and so the way I got there was I realized that uh I needed to change the model I was using to understand the atonement. And once I did that, it unlocked the atonement inside of the temple. And the model we normally use is some kind of payment of a debt model, like uh I sin and I owe some kind of debt for that sin to Heavenly Father, and then and I can't pay it, and so Jesus has to come along and pay that debt. And once he does that, then I'm clean, and then I go to the temple, or then I go to the to baptism or whatever it is, I go do the church stuff. And what I started to realize is uh number one, I as I already mentioned before, that I don't like that view of Heavenly Father. I think Heavenly Father isn't isn't standing there saying, until you pay me off, I'm not gonna love it. Right. He's got his little money counters.

SPEAKER_01 5:59

And he had these account, bank accounts with him, and he's looking at it and he's like, all wills overdrawn again. Yes, because he keeps sinning. That doesn't that's transactional.

SPEAKER_00 6:08

It's transactional, yes. And it it that didn't appeal to me. I couldn't, it just didn't work for me, right? So, so I started to look into um really it's in in Leviticus of all places, yeah, where you start to learn about the purpose of the sacrifices in in the tabernacle in the temple in the Old Testament. And what you start to see is that the primary obstacle they're trying to overcome is God's glory. And so that's another way of talking about God's justice, but it's it's actually a little bit different because what they couldn't do is they couldn't abide his glory, they weren't ready for his presence. You could say his glory is another way of saying his presence, right? They weren't ready to enter his presence until they had gone through some kind of transformation themselves.

SPEAKER_01 6:53

Yeah, so it's not like God, you know, stiff arming them away because of this account that's overdrawn. It's more about he emanates this thing called glory. And this and it's an actual power. I think when we use the word glory in scriptures, people um I want to challenge the listeners to really look into the doctrine, uh, the doctrine and covenants because you realize it's this like it's almost like an energy. Uh, I've heard it as spiritual currency in a sense, this like power. And so we can't abide in his his presence because of the goodness he emanates, because we are fallen.

SPEAKER_00 7:23

That's right. That's right. And so uh and so what he has to do then is figure out a way to bring his presence into our lives, even in our fallenness. Otherwise, we'll never have that chance to progress and grow into a fullness of, like, let's say, the stature of the, you know, what's the scripture? A fullness of the stature of the fullness of Christ. Yeah. I said fullness twice, but you know what I'm saying. Totally. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:45

Well, it's it is an interesting dilemma for Heavenly Father. And I'm sure this wasn't hard for him, but just for me, logically, it's like you you have this thing that you emanate because of your goodness and you want your children back, but they can't come back because they couldn't abide your presence. So how do you allow, how do you create a situation where you can be in their presence and they can abide you? Right. And I think that's where you're talking about Leviticus, yeah?

SPEAKER_00 8:07

Yeah, and Leviticus, and then I realized that we were using um we along with the payment model, we would use the courtroom or like a commercial context to understand the atonement. But the temple, I think, was trying to invite us to say, no, no, no, use the creation account as the model for atonement because it's in the creation story that we learn what is the thing that holds everything together, and it's God's glory, his presence. See, so God's glory is life-giving, it is the source of life, it is the source that holds, let's say, everything together in the ordered state that it's in. And it's when we depart from his presence, which is what the fall was. It was uh we were cut off from his presence, as the scriptures say, and that's why things start to deteriorate or disorganize. They die, which is what death is, it's disorganization. It's yes, it's you know, so but that happens because you've lost the ability to abide his presence. And now the crazy thing about it is that that God wanted that to happen, right? So, because we used to live, let's say, if you have to go all the way back again. This is in the temple. We start in the premortal life, right? We start in a council, and we're told we have to go down for their space there and take of these materials and make an earth where on these may dwell, and we'll be tested there. And but the test really can't happen unless we leave his presence because we'd already done whatever whatever we needed to do before we had done, and and in order to make the next steps, it needed to be away from him. And so he builds an earth, he creates an earth that that uh enables this to happen. But the after the creation, the fall is actually what triggers all of that, right? So there needs to be a fall that basically cuts us off from his presence. But now you're in a new dilemma. Now, without his presence, you're you're gonna die, and not just physical death, spiritual death. You're everything's gonna fall apart. You're actually gonna go back to the pre-creation state. That's why I think the creation story is so important, is because it's before he organizes anything, there's just water and darkness before he, you know, in the spirit of God it says hovering over the waters, right? And that what the water is an ancient way of symbolizing chaos. And so, really, the the problem he was solving with creation was um ordering chaos and put giving darkness a purpose, basically, because he puts it in as nighttime, but um, and what he does, he's gonna do the same thing in our lives now through the atonement. He's going, because our lives will now be filled with chaos and darkness because of the fall, and he's going to, through the atonement, properly order our lives and give darkness a purpose. Because we always say, Oh, we learn from our trials and so on, right? So the darkness will have a purpose in our lives, but only because we are connected to his presence, just like in the creation story. So, see, the atonement is recapitulating or reenacting the creation story.

SPEAKER_01 10:53

And um, and so the atonement is recreating?

Creation As The Atonement Pattern

SPEAKER_00 10:56

Yeah, it's redoing it basically. So I see. Yeah, so the idea is I'm sorry if I'm going, I'm gonna go. I love this, keep going. Okay, you go, uh the idea is you start um, let's say high. I have my hand up, right? So you start high, and then Christ let us go down, so he comes down for there is space there, and he makes uh of um an earth, right, whereon we can be tested. Then when through the fall, we go even further down, you could say. Um, but when he comes down, what he's doing is he's um he's breathing into everything, the breath of life. You know, that the creation story is told as him speaking and his breath, the spirit that they're talking about in the creation story isn't necessarily the Holy Ghost, it's the light of Christ. It's the it's the glory. And the light of Christ is is the glory. It's the glory. Yeah, it's the it's that that shininess, right? It's he's so good, he's so wonderful that he just pours goodness out of him and it shines, and that's that's his glory.

SPEAKER_01 11:53

I've heard once that glory, we we create, we adopt that and we are transformed by the glory of God as we do a couple of things. And one of those is be obedient. That obedience thing that we do, it puts us in alignment with those elements of glory that so that we can abide more and become transformed by it. The second thing is um is through knowledge, studying the scriptures, everything, every everything that we learn is light and knowledge, and that light is glory, and it helps us transform into that space. So yeah, so my I had a qu I have I had someone ask me a question once. I want to make sure I said it to them correctly based on what you just said. He I had someone ask me, why is the fall the primary thing that we learn in the temple? And my reaction was, and don't worry, you can totally edit if I mess this up. I said to him, I said, the fall was is so important because we're told in the beginning that we are Adam and Eve, right, you know, respectively, that we go through our own version of that same story. It's not just the foundation and the creation, it's our foundation, our creation. And so they're in order to understand how to get back, we put ourselves into their shoes in order to do that. Um, so first of all, how did I do on that?

SPEAKER_00 13:03

Yeah, I think that's great.

SPEAKER_01 13:04

Is that pretty in alignment with what you think? Yes. Because the other thing I'll say now because of this interview is that, and because we wanted to change the setting of how we view the atonement. It's not a courtroom where Jesus is is our defense attorney, which is how I've always seen it.

SPEAKER_02 13:17

Right.

SPEAKER_01 13:17

Jesus is our defense attorney, and wouldn't you want him as your defense attorney? But that's what you're saying. It's like but that's not what that's not what this is. This isn't this is what was sparking as inconsistent for you as a young man. It was like something's not correct here. This isn't, there's more love behind this than the way that sounds.

SPEAKER_00 13:33

Yeah. Yeah. And so there are really two, there are two problems. Um, I'll say that the creation is solving, and then the fall reintroduces them. Okay. And then the atonement solves them by doing what Christ did on the in the creation.

SPEAKER_01 13:45

So the fall, so let me just say that back to you. So there's a fall and a creation that solves the fall that first one, and then there's a second fall, and the atonement solves the second one, or recreates that. Is that what you said?

SPEAKER_00 13:54

Yeah, what I'm yeah, well, the creation solves two problems, okay, and then the fall reintroduces those two problems, and then the atonement solves those two problems again, but in the same way the creation solved it. Got it. So let's get into it. Let's go right into it, please. The when I mentioned he let us go down, it's just a pattern because he in the creation he comes down. I don't I think I've learned to read scriptures not just uh that's not just like a literal thing. There's also a symbolic point to that. That where God dwells is different from where he came down to to create the earth. Right. So there is a like if you were watching this on a in a play, which we actually kind of do watch in a play, sure. Um you know, they're there when they come down, they're coming from a higher state of glory, like it's more shiny and bright there, and then they come down and it's not quite as shiny and bright where the earth is made. And the earth is still, even before it's fallen, it's still less than our heavenly home. Right. It's it's wonderful, it's a garden of Eden, right? It's a like a terrestrial state, is how a lot of people describe it, but terrestral isn't celestial, right? So so there's even so that's why I point out so he comes down and then he makes this earth, and what he's solving is the problems of chaos and darkness. So that stuff was already there, it was pre-existent, it just is.

SPEAKER_01 15:13

That's why they talk about organizing matter.

SPEAKER_00 15:15

That's right. That's why, and that's an important concept in my mind because it says that God isn't the source of chaos or darkness. No, he's the one that solves chaos and darkness. Um, and I again that was an important journey in my life too. It's one of the many questions that came up was what they often call the problem of evil, like philosophers call it that, and it's how can a good God um allow evil? And uh most of the time that's really hard for a lot of people to solve when God makes uh everything out of nothing, because then he's the one that actually had to make if he's the source of all creation.

SPEAKER_01 15:50

Yeah, to your point, I have some very close friends who are atheists, and that is their by far their biggest point. And they're great human beings, by the way, and really wonderful. They're just in many ways members of our faith in in terms of value set, but that's their big argument with all religion, especially because the idea of yeah, if everything was created by God, how can you explain these horrible things that happened?

SPEAKER_00 16:10

That's exactly right, yeah. So, what the what our story is saying when when you because uh Joseph Smith said this, he taught this, and he also it's also in the Doctrine and Covenants in section 93. It says the elements are eternal. And so when I read the creation story, the waters that are there before God shows up and the darkness that is there is just the stuff that was there before. It's just and um and it's it's described in the way it's described because you and I can't live in that stuff. No, like I I can't, I can only tread water for so long before I drown. Right. Yeah, you can only live in darkness for so long before it will destroy you.

SPEAKER_02 16:46

Yeah, you know.

SPEAKER_00 16:47

So uh again, think think more symbolically than maybe literally. I was there literally water that God was using to create the earth, probably not. It was the elements, yeah, whatever those are.

SPEAKER_01 16:57

I don't know a lot of carbon for sure, but beyond that, you don't know, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:00

Right, exactly. So, but from a uh from like a scriptural standpoint, in fact, Moses chapter six tells us this. It says to that everything was created to bear testimony of him. So that's how I'm interpreting these stories, the creation stories. How is it gonna bear testimony of God and Christ and the plan of salvation? And so I'm gonna look at the waters and the darkness from that lens, which means to me, it's it's just the stuff that was there, and it's not a problem he created, it's a problem he's solving. Yeah. So he shows up on the scene, and when he comes, he brings light with him. That's actually the first thing he does. He says, Let there be light. And so he introduces goodness into things. And it's his it's his speaking, and his and and I was saying this before, the word for uh for spirit in Hebrew is the same word for breath or wind. So when God speaks, he's speaking, you know, he's breathing out air. And just like he breathed into Adam the breath of life, every statement in the creation story is him breathing into the stuff that was already there, the breath of life. He's giving it light or life or function or form, something that gives it purpose beyond what it had before. And so um, so he is that the source of all the good stuff. And it and the way he's able to transfer the goodness that's inside of him, because the scriptures will often point out many, many times that the Savior, who was the primary creator in the story, is full of grace and truth. So he's basically taking all that goodness that's in him and pouring it into the darkness and the chaos that's already there, and then it and then it becomes something beautiful and wonderful. And by the end, it becomes um like a state of Sabbath day rest where everything is like harmonious and identic, right? So so that's that and that happens because he imparts of his breath, of his life, of his spirit, you could say, his presence. His essence.

SPEAKER_01 18:50

Yes, like glory is another it's like almost a radiation of of him. Yes, and that light is him.

SPEAKER_00 18:56

That's right, that's right. So now what what the create what what's happening in the Garden of Eden is that it's uh it's a place of light and goodness, less than the celestial kingdom, but not a fallen telestial world yet.

SPEAKER_01 19:10

No.

SPEAKER_00 19:10

And the next step to get there though is the fall. So it needed to happen. We needed to have that next step because in Eden you're not gonna learn all the lessons you need to learn, right?

SPEAKER_02 19:19

Right.

SPEAKER_00 19:20

And so we and we're really familiar with that doctrine. But so, and it's really a great um doctrine to point out that Adam and Eve were meant to fall. And I think biblically, if you were to look at it biblically, there's an an account of a new heaven and new earth at the end of in the book of Revelation that says um it goes through and it points out that the elements of the original creation that will no longer exist in the new heaven and new earth. And it's things like nighttime or the sea, which is the water, right? Or uh the curse, which is the fall. Uh, it also says the sun and moon and stars won't exist because we will dwell directly in the presence of the Father and He will be our light. Wow. You know, so so like all of what so if you put those things together, you kind of read the story um holistically and not like this is just the creation story in Genesis 1, and then I'll read this story over here in Revelation separate from it. But if I look at it holistically, what it's saying is God intentionally, at least this is the way I interpret it, God intentionally set up this earth to begin with in a way that it could, where bad things could present itself, but in a in a contained way, you could say. In a way that, yes, to us it seems overwhelming at times, but it's still like within the the bubble he made, right? And so it would and he can redeem it, and we'll talk about that through the atonement. He redeems these things and makes them life lessons and opportunities rather than destruction and chaos and death and everything. But um, but in the end, once that's over, once the test, the probationary period is over, then he'll eliminate all that stuff in the new heaven and new earth because it won't have a purpose anymore. Uh-huh. And so now we'll live in this you know celestial state where there isn't nighttime, quote unquote, right? A symbolic nighttime. And there might actually be a nighttime, right? But symbolically speaking, your life will no longer uh oscillate between daytime and nighttime. Symbol again, speak speaking symbolically, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:11

Your life is well, I've gone through dark nights in my life. Yes. And we all have. I know what when you so we know what you mean by that. And it's interesting because as I've learned about language just from doing this show, it's been so fascinating to me to realize how we use a very firm, fixed language nowadays. But back in the day, back when the Bible was being written, it was there were songs that were sung, and there was they were meant to have multiple meanings. Like it was it was almost this like art that we've lost in language that we've got now in terms of you know, just this these books that we have. But there was the people who are linguists like you and others that I've I've talked to, it's like, no, there's like this beauty around it. And it was multiple words had multiple meanings, like mediation, which we'll get to. Yes. And and like what that what that means on various levels. And so we get very um transactional in the sense because we we see one angle and we hear it as one thing. And then we build beliefs around that, and then cultures and traditions evolve from there.

SPEAKER_00 22:04

Exactly. Yeah. And one of the things that we've adopted in our culture, and it's a good thing in many ways, is we're all scientists and philosophers, whether we think we are or not. You go through school and you learn different science classes, and in your English classes, you're being taught how to write essays in a certain way. And I remember specifically writing it, my mother was an English teacher, and I wrote an essay, and I was very colorful in the essay, like wanted to use all these adverbs and adjectives and everything. And she said, no, no, no, no. Like when you write an essay, you strip all of that out, and it's just like to the point. Yes. Point A to point B to point C, like straight line, right? And that and there's value in that, but then you, if you think that's how the scriptures were written, which is what we do, we bring ourselves to the scriptures, and we bring everything that we've learned, and then we expect the scriptures to to be the same way that we've been taught how to do English essays, and then we're frustrated when we can't get anything out of the scriptures. And the reality is most of it is because we've we're just bringing the wrong lens to the scriptures.

SPEAKER_01 23:04

Do you feel like that is the mentality that makes it hard for some people to see the atonement through the temple?

SPEAKER_00 23:10

Yes. Yeah, absolutely. And so that that back to the problems being solved. Yeah, the problem being solved. So it's one. Yeah. So he solves he solves chaos and and darkness. Chaos can be just another way of saying death, you could say, because death is disorder of whatever variety.

SPEAKER_01 23:28

Um, well in the human body when it dies, what what does it look like as it decomposes? It disorders.

SPEAKER_00 23:34

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 23:34

It literally disintegrates. We use the word decause it describes that process. So that's what death is the disintegration and the dissemination of organization.

The Earth As Justice And Mercy

SPEAKER_00 23:44

That's right. So after the fall, Adam and Eve kind of the the earth is kind of in this fine-tuned balance after the after Heavenly Father or Jehovah and creates it with Adam and everything. It's in this fine balance. And then after the fall, it's in a new balance. It's just that the balance leans towards the chaos and darkness rather than leaning towards the light. And but that needed to happen. Again, it needed to, you need to have both, but you needed it to lean towards, let's say, the darkness and the chaos because we need to learn certain lessons, right? So um, but when that happens, it reintroduces that original problem of chaos and darkness. In fact, Adam and Eve are told this ground that you know in the creation story, they're told if you plant something in the earth, it will produce like for like. Like if you planted an apple seed, you're gonna get an apple tree with apple fruit. Then they're told after the fall, well, you know, it's probably if you're gonna get some thorns and thistles, it's not gonna work out the way necessarily you want it to, unless you work really hard, right? And by the sweat of your brow, you might be able to wring some goodness out of this earth still. That tells you that things have been skewed, and that actually is an important point. There's nowhere a courtroom is what we think of for justice, but in the creation story, the earth is justice. See, because the earth is you reap what you sow. And it's true, it's perfect, it works perfectly in the Garden of Eden. Um, and even the waters themselves, in a sense, are a form of justice because they reflect back whatever God speaks into it. Oh, and so it's kind of like when we talk about justice being an eternal thing, I think it's right there in the story that's the way stuff just works. It's almost like Newton's third law, like for every action there's an equal and opposite reaction, and you can't change that. It's just the way it is. And so God spoke into it and he got back an equal and opposite thing, which or maybe not opposite, but he got back what he and then when he sets up the earth, it actually multiplies. See, because God's blessing is on it. So whatever God does, he magnifies it. This is part of the problem, too, is that God magnifies stuff. So justice, which was kind of woven into the matter of chaos, um, is now being multiplied. So you could plant something, and if it's good, great, because it'll multiply into lots of wonderful good things. But if you planted something bad, it might multiply into lots of bad stuff. That's like a butterfly effect, right? Sure. So that in the in the fall, we're told that the the the justice, the principle of justice that's being represented by the earth is askew now. There's something, it's a little bit off. Like it's not gonna work the way you thought it was gonna work. And then in a the subsequent story about Cain and Abel, when Cain murders Abel and the blood of Abel pours into the ground, it's the earth that cries out, the blood cries out from the earth for justice. It's a demand for justice. See, it's not a courtroom metaphor, it's the earth soaking up, you know, the un the unjust death of Abel and saying something wrong has happened here. And when the Lord comes down and talks to Cain, he says, You know, now that you've basically sown into the earth death, it will no longer produce uh fruit for you. Like you won't be able to be a farmer anymore, Cain. That was his curse. Because he had he was gonna reap what he had sown, which was death. He sowed death, he was death. Wow. Yeah, and so what then Cain says, sorry, this is a digression, but it's important. He says, This is too great for me to bear. And so then what the Lord does is when he puts a mark on him, it's not a more of a punishment. He's actually, Cain is worried that people will now he'll be a vagabond and a fugitive wandering around the earth. How is he gonna get food? How is he gonna survive? Other people might even know he's murdered um Abel, and they'll and there's no police. This is too there's no police to call to arrest him. So they they took care of justice justice themselves, and so he's worried somebody's gonna take it out on him and he'll be dead. He's like, this is just too much. Like I didn't realize how bad this was gonna be. So actually, God puts a mark on him to say, anybody that kills you will be punished even like sevenfold or whatever it was. So God is actually protecting Cain with the mark, and we've misinterpreted that for years. It's a sign of God's mercy, even to someone who had just murdered his brother, which to me is a very different view of God.

SPEAKER_01 27:51

Very almost almost to the extreme opposite.

SPEAKER_00 27:53

It almost is.

SPEAKER_01 27:54

Right? Where it's like, well, how can he give so much mercy to a murderer?

SPEAKER_00 27:57

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 27:58

It's kind of now the other side of that equation. But it's interesting, it's a beautiful pair uh it's a beautiful extreme opposite view because for all I've ever seen it as was a curse and this like way of like making it wrong, which was almost feel again very justified. Yes, but but that mercy and that love is is that's God. God is love.

SPEAKER_00 28:17

He is.

SPEAKER_01 28:18

So if there's any way, he will, including marking Cain, so he doesn't have to, you know, so it's protecting him.

SPEAKER_00 28:24

Yeah. Because in a sense, he was already punished enough, you could say, like, well, I mean the earth isn't gonna produce, and and he's delivering the thing that about it is he even says, I'll just deliver you up to basically the consequences of your actions. So it's more like just the natural consequences of the earth that Cain is going to suffer, and um, and and God's just gonna let it happen. But then he's also, I will also give you some protection, so you know it won't be totally unbearable for you. Um later on, just keeping the theme of the earth. Yes, please. The uh the earth in the vision of Enoch is the one that cries out and says, When are you finally gonna cleanse me from all this wickedness that saw me? In Leviticus, it's the land that gets polluted by breaking of commandments and stuff, and then eventually if the land can't take it anymore, it like spews people out of it. It's almost as if the earth's personified. But I think what it's trying to get at is this principle of justice that the earth is that law um incarnate, you could say. Uh you know, uh manifested in a material form.

SPEAKER_01 29:26

It kind of makes sense in the in the idea that before the earth was formed, it was chaos. And so the Lord comes and organizes matter and puts organization to it. And so it's it is literally organized to the degree that where when something happens that goes against the natural laws, it it is it it's it's not aligned with what the purpose and the and the reason for the earth's creation in the first place. So yeah. I just never thought of the earth as like a person. Like you said personified, but like the way the scriptures and this might be the more artistic part of the language. I think it is, but it feels like the earth is is another person.

Atonement Means Being Covered

SPEAKER_00 29:58

Yeah, it's another character in the story in a sense. But I think that's we should. I mean, I could be wrong. Maybe the earth actually has like personality and everything. I think it's more likely that we're just supposed to see it as a character in the story, meaning it um it has a role in the story, and it's representing this this kind of inexorable law that you just can't avoid. And the reason why I like that interpretation and the why reason I've gravitated towards that is because again, Heavenly Father and the Savior um aren't they they are in control of it, but they aren't necessarily the authors always of the bad stuff that happens. It just kind of naturally happens. And so what what happens after Adam and Eve fall is you know, things are askew, there's a little disorder and everything that's reintroduced, there's a nighttime that's reintroduced, and so God has to uh I should say darkness, not nighttime, darkness is reintroduced. And God sets it up to protect them on their journey now, and that's what the coats of the skins are for. Like if you were naked before, all of a sudden the world becomes full of thorns and thistles. It's really hard to live in a world of thorns and thistles when you're naked. Like I've I have rocks in my side yard, and I take the trash out sometimes without shoes on, and I can barely handle walking on rocks with bare feet. Totally. You know, but if I were just, I know that my feet would probably toughen up over time, but still the idea of living in a world of thorns and thistles without clothing would be very difficult to do. So the clothing in the story itself represents God's um, it's like the mark on Cain. He's putting a mark, something on Adam and Eve, that will protect them from the natural consequences of their choices, which is the earth has now become a little more uh, you know, not friendly to them.

SPEAKER_01 31:46

It's such a merciful act. Yeah. I mean, it's all these things that God's doing, you know, he he never he loves us enough to give us our agency. And so when we use that agency to distance ourselves from Heavenly Father, it's a beautiful thing to think that even then, okay, here's the consequences that are coming. Here, let me protect you as best as I can without sacrificing what you need to learn from that experience. And so, I mean, there's I honestly probably have about a dozen questions about garments for you. But I love that idea of the being a protective, merciful action that the Lord put garment on Adam and Eve, and then we can, you know, we obviously have that same same thing for us today.

SPEAKER_00 32:24

Yes, exactly. Yeah, and I like how you said without sacrificing the ability for us to learn the things, because that's what he wanted. He wanted us to come into a fallen world, and now he's just equipping us so that we can get the most out of it without it destroying us or without it being too uncomfortable, you could say.

SPEAKER_02 32:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:40

Um, so what but the way he does that is through so he in the beginning he came down and he breathed into everything the breath of life. Um, and or or in this, when he created Adam, he kind of like forms it like a like a little mud statue or something, right? And then breathes into it. Which by the way, we can get into that if you want. It's I think there's some cool symbolism there. But after the fall, just we'll stick with that, the coat of skins. A lot of people have pointed out that in order to to make the coat of skins, you'd have to sacrifice an animal, you'd have to kill an animal. And more than it doesn't tell us what animal, but more than likely it's a lamb for sure or something like that, right? So, um, and it and and it's going to represent this is a representation of Jesus Christ. And so he now most of the time we would say he sacrifices himself to pay off a debt, but in the story itself, he's not paying off a debt. What he's doing is he's the the skins were a part of the animal, so it's a part of the animal that is being taken off of the animal and put on to Adam and Eve. So, and the word for atonement in Hebrew can mean it can have multiple meanings, but one of the meanings um is to cover. And so the what's actually happening is like I mentioned before that Jesus was full of grace and truth and he poured that into creation. Now he's taking his grace and truth and putting it on Adam and Eve. He's wrapping them up, he's covering it. He's covering them up, yeah. With his goodness, like with what only he has. You know, it's a it's grace. And and now you can connect that to um, you know, we we see the garments, uh, the coats of skins tied to, let's say, priesthood or the name of Christ. Well, that those are related concepts. Priesthood is the power of God. And when we say, what is grace? Well, it's God's enabling power. Well, what are we talking about then? We're talking about the same thing. Part of him. Yes, part of him. And it's the same stuff. We're just using different words to kind of get at different ideas. Uh, it's like the the guys that touch the elephant, the blindfolded guys that touch the elephant, and one guy's touching a tail on the leg and everything, and they're all trying to describe an elephant, and they're all describing an elephant, just different parts of it. Wow. So grace, priesthood, light of Christ, glory, whatever, you know, these are we're all talking about the same thing. There's something about God that's part of him, that's in him, that he needs to impart to us that will enable us to do what we need to do in this life. It's a gift, it's an endowment, right? See, he's giving us something.

SPEAKER_01 35:09

So I'm starting to see that connection now of deeper understanding of how the temple and especially the endowment. How we can learn about the atonement, because understanding that language, that the that word atonement can mean to be covered. That really immediately gives me a clear idea of that part of the animal being a part of me in terms of the clothing, but the part of Christ covering me and protecting me from the darkness and the chaos of the world that and the fallen state that we're in.

SPEAKER_00 35:37

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 35:37

So I'm starting to understand how how what you're talking about helps out actually give more light to the atonement as I'm going through the endowment process.

SPEAKER_00 35:45

Okay, then there's one other problem. I've been I I know I said there were two problems, and I made it seem as if chaos and death were the two problems. That's really like this, that's one problem. Okay. Okay, so the second problem that is solved in the creation and then reintroduced and then it's solved by the atonement is God's glory itself.

SPEAKER_01 36:01

Aaron Powell Right, because we can't get anyone's presence because it's it's so much more pure than we are.

SPEAKER_00 36:06

That's right.

SPEAKER_01 36:06

We had to lose the innocence in the fall to learn what we had to learn, but the problem is now we can't sustain the glory.

SPEAKER_00 36:11

That's right. Even in the creation story, I know I'm gonna piece together some things so this is truly like all of this is just my take on stuff. So if it doesn't work for you, don't worry about it, right? Uh I'm I have no authority and I'm not important.

SPEAKER_01 36:22

So just you know, like But I do want to pause on that comment and just say that what's powerful about this, though, is that part of that logical brain that you had is taking you down a journey where you're piecing things together with actual scripture. And so having on my end to have sat on this table so many times, these concepts, everything that you're saying is are things I've heard before. And it's just there's the uniqueness around it that has come from the way that you see it. Yeah, and there's something beautiful about it for people who are listening because it gives them inspiration to go, oh, I'm learning about the depth of those scriptures, the different meanings and how this could actually play, especially if you're one who feels like the atonement isn't transactional and it's transformational, right?

SPEAKER_00 37:00

So please okay, yeah. So um, I want to so what I was saying with the glory, right? So when he comes down, there's this there's this text, and this is just one of many. It's called the Pista Sophia. It's like a Nagomadi Gnostic text. That's how this gets classified. And in that story, it talks about um Christ after he ascended into heaven and he comes back to visit the apostles. And when he comes back, initially he's so bright, the apostles are like, Oh, you've got to dim yourself. I can't take it. You're too much for me. And so he like turns down the heat, right? And and he's like, Is that better for you guys? And they're like, Yeah, yeah, it's good. I'm I'm kind of being facetious.

SPEAKER_01 37:40

No, but I like the analogy because I can imagine that better.

SPEAKER_00 37:43

Yeah, yeah. So um, I think that the Pistosophia, and that's not the only one. There's like the ascension of Isaiah, that's another uh apocryphal text where um as as Isaiah ascends, there's seven heavens in this ascension of Isaiah, as he ascends each heaven. I'll I'll just this is another digression. It he has to go by, there are two angels that stand at each heaven, and he has to go past them at each heaven to keep progressing. And there's two things he needs to go by them, at least things I can remember off the top of my head. One is he is given a robe of glory. Got it, and that enables him to keep going. And the other thing he's given is a new name.

SPEAKER_02 38:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:21

Okay, and it as he and and the new name is like a new identity. Like, so basically, those angels don't prevent him from going further because he is the kind of person who has the kind of like glory about him that can keep going.

SPEAKER_01 38:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:36

Okay, so as he goes up, he that's what happens. And and and there's even a point where one of the angels is like, why does Isaiah get to keep going up? This doesn't seem right. And there the answer from heaven is, well, he has the robe of glory and he has the name. So, and then when Jesus comes down, like in this, Isaiah sees Christ coming down from the right hand of the Father to do the atonement. As he comes down, he turns down the light at each at each station. So each heaven, it's like, you know, a little bit less light, a little bit less light. So when he gets to the final heaven and he comes to earth, he has laid his glory by, as you would say, like in the hymn, right? And he and he's in disguise in a sense. He's he looks like anybody else. But inside of him is a glory that transfigures you and me, as another hymn says. Yes. And he's full of grace and truth. So it's still there. So he's what he's done is he smuggled a bit of a bit of heaven into a fallen world that normally, if you came, if he brought that in full power, it would just melt everything, right? And that's what's I think happening in the creation story, too, is because there's a firmament, and the firmament isn't we often, and it's fine to interpret it this way, we often talk about it as um the sky or like the atmosphere.

SPEAKER_01 39:46

I've never understood it. I've done some deep research on it, the firmament firmament. I I've I've looked at the different definitions. I'd love any clarification you have on that.

SPEAKER_00 39:53

I think we should just be more let it be what the ancient people said it was, and then try to understand that symbolically. And what they understood it to be was an actual dome, like a crystal dome. And sometimes it was other things. It doesn't have to be crystal, it could be just something hard. And there are windows in it that let water from above come through, so there can be rain. But it also, the sun, moon, and stars are placed into it, and they are ref refracting or reflecting the light of the higher heavens, so down to us. So it's a it's like a it's a veil because the veil blocks light, but it doesn't block all the light. There's still some that seeps through, and that's what the so the firmament is protecting from the chaos waters above, because there's waters above, but it's also protecting from God's full glory. It's saying we're gonna let God's glory trickle into this life through the firmament and the sun and the moon and the stars. Those are the things, and um, and that's why later on you don't need the sun and moon and stars anymore, because we're ready for the full glory of God, so you can get rid of the firmament and all that stuff. That's all just protection. It's another coat of skins in a sense.

SPEAKER_01 41:00

Right.

SPEAKER_00 41:01

For for the first creation. Now, when we fall, we're even further from the light. So so now, you know, we need we needed something extra. And so that's what I was mentioning about Jesus coming down and he smuggling some of God's light into the world. And the doctrine and covenant, section 88, I think it's the best scripture of all time, verses 6 through 13. It says that Christ descended and ascended above all things so that he could be in and through all things the light of truth. So it's we should think of the atonement. We always do this, which is good. I think of it as he's he is bearing our sins, he's taking things away from us, but there's also an upload, he is leaving a piece of himself behind with us. And that's why you and I have the light of Christ. See, the that scripture is suggesting that you and I have the light of Christ as a gift of the atonement. Somehow, this is like uh you know time time-bending stuff. Yeah, but somehow, uh because he did what he did in 33 AD, uh you and I living in 2026 AD have the light of Christ. But he he I'm saying he anointed us with it in 33 A.D.

SPEAKER_02 42:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:10

And the same with people lived before him. Because that that scripture suggests that that's what he was doing, and it's the bare minimum. He's just giving us like the base level you need to be able to progress. Because without the light of Christ, you can't recognize good and evil, you can't make good choices, you don't feel uh uh guilty over your sins, you won't repent, you know. Like it's actually the basis of our progression, and it's given to us, according to section 88, through Christ's dissension. Again, if the payment model doesn't allow you to read that scripture that way, yeah, but if you are thinking of it in the creation terms model, that means it what I'm saying is God has to figure out a way to get his glory to us because you and I need that for to do anything, like all goodness comes through that glory to us. And so if you and I are cut off from his presence through the fall, see the first the first problem was chaos, the thorns and thistles. He solved that with a coat of skins, which he did by taking a piece of himself off and putting it on us. He solves it the same way, it's just a little bit of himself on us. And then the other one was now we're cut off from his presence. What are we gonna do now? Well, then he comes down and dabs a little bit of his goodness onto all of us.

SPEAKER_01 43:16

This descends below all things that he can, in fact, have. I think it's interesting too, in the courtroom model that we'll call it, you know, the the justice for mercy model as it stands, repentance on its own again feels transactional. You know, I have committed something, therefore my account is in the red. Because the savior paid the ultimate price, I am able to go through a process and and reconcil, re reconciliate with him, and then I'm brought back to equal. But that's not what happens according to this other uh creation model. That's right. When I when I fall from God's presence through sin, all I'm doing is blocking that glory myself. It's not me punishing, it's not God punishing me, it's me receiving the consequences. Of my decisions. But if I repent, then I'm not just made whole. I am left with more Christ in me. That's right. As a matter of fact, that's that's the variation is that in the courtroom model, repentance is a correction of the path. Where in the creation model, what we're saying is that repentance is the path. It's the way to become like Christ. Because we we have to, every time we make a mistake, not that we should do it intentionally, but this whole Satan like inner head thing around like, oh, you made another mistake, you went to the temple and you went home and you sinned. It's like, no, that is that is the way. You go to the temple, you go home, you sin, not intentionally, but you try your best, you sin anyway. And you go back and you reconcile you go back and repent. And this transformation, this glory doesn't just absolve us of the sin, it actually makes us more like Christ.

SPEAKER_00 44:44

That's right.

SPEAKER_01 44:45

It's a really different, transformational, miraculous approach that just can only be described as loving. That's right.

Tabernacle As God With Us

SPEAKER_00 44:50

Yeah. And and it's based on relationship, which gets back to like the whole covenant thing. Yeah. Lately we've been emphasizing as a church that covenants are relationships. And I think that's great because that's the idea. As you are in relationship with him, he's able to pour more of himself onto you or into you, right? And so let me with the I'll I'll talk, I mentioned um Leviticus, so I'll come back to Leviticus now with this whole creation model we've been talking about. You the Israelites come to Mount Sinai and they see on top of Mount Sinai Jehovah's Up there. And and from their viewpoint, it looks really scary. They mentioned the thunderings and the lightnings and everything, and they're like, Moses, you go up onto the mountain.

SPEAKER_01 45:34

You're our leader. Yeah, you take one for the tank.

SPEAKER_00 45:36

Yeah, exactly. Come down, tell us you know what he wants to say, but we're not going up. So um that that is what the endowment is about is you and I are at the bottom, we're at the foot of Mount Sinai. And in fact, the temple is the mountain of the Lord.

SPEAKER_02 45:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:52

And how are we we the Lord doesn't want us to stay at the bottom of the mountain forever. Like he he wanted us to fall, he wanted us to be down, let's say, in the valley. But eventually he wants us to ascend back up. And so the endowment is going to teach us how to make the ascension, how to make the journey that Moses made. And um and not just stay at the bottom. But the first thing God does, though, uh with the bottom is He He creates a tabernacle. He gets He tells Moses, do a tabernacle. So what the tabernacle is, is according to Leviticus, again, that's the book that we all you know never read and we think it's so harsh, it says, Make a tabernacle so that I may dwell with my people and walk with them. And see, so what the tabernacle represents is Jehovah is camping with his people in the wilderness.

SPEAKER_01 46:39

In a very contained area, because you know it's not it's a fallen state. So the tabernacle is a very contained area, but it's still in their presence.

SPEAKER_00 46:47

That's right, exactly. And as they wander around in the wilderness of their life, he's with them everywhere they go. It's Emmanuel, God with us.

SPEAKER_01 46:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:56

And and he's tabernacling with us just like he did in the New Testament. He tabernacled in the clay with us, in a body of clay. So the tabernacle in the Old Testament, the tent, is a symbol of Christ's body in the New Testament. In fact, we even say the veil is the body of Christ in the temple. And see, each of the veils is like some layer of Christ's body, you could say, that's shielding the grace and truth. All that good stuff is in the Holy of Holies behind the veil, but only a little bit of it is coming out, just enough that we need that doesn't overpower us, or or you know, strikes that nice balance. So even in the valley, God descends, Jehovah descends from the mountaintop and dwells with his people in a tent. See, that's the incarnate, that's the symbol of the incarnation. It's also the symbol of creation because he came down to make the world, right?

SPEAKER_01 47:47

And it's such a in the we we read in the Book of Mormon about the great contension. You know, do you understand the continent of God? It's like I I've never really understood that word until we started talking this way, because it's like it is so wonderful. It is that he loves us so much that he was willing to come down and just it's like it's like it's almost I get this sense the way you're talking. He's just constantly trying to be close. It's like whatever he can do, whatever he can, you know, because he he knows that we have to learn these lessons, we have to enter this fallen state. But okay, if you're gonna do that, then here's a coat of skins. And oh, you're gonna be over here and you can't, you're scared by the glory, which you should be, because you can't sustain it yet. So I'm gonna so just make a tabernacle and I'll come at least be in that and I'll be with you, and you can carry me around as you wander.

SPEAKER_00 48:30

That's right.

SPEAKER_01 48:30

And that's and that's that's it. So what what is that for us today?

Fire On The Altar And Repentance

SPEAKER_00 48:33

Yeah. Well, that is um well, okay. So Am I jumping ahead and saying, No, no, you're good. I mean, I there I'll so I'm gonna still do the light of Christ real quick, if that's okay. So at in the tabernacle, there's an altar out in the wheel in the wilderness area. Nobody could go into the holy place or the holy of holies except unless you were a priest, but everyone could come to the altar of sacrifice.

SPEAKER_01 48:52

And that was on the outside, the altar of sacrifice and the in the washing basin, yes.

SPEAKER_00 48:55

Yes, that's right. And on that altar, um, there was a fire. Like God, when Moses dedicated the tabernacle, God sent fire out of heaven to light it up. Well, that's a bit of his glory. It's like you can think of it, like he flicked a speck of himself almost, and it lit up this little so that fire on the altar is God's glory.

SPEAKER_02 49:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:15

And the but it keeps and you know, they they were told never to let it go out. It has to burn always. And the way they did that was every morning and every evening they would offer a lamb as a sacrifice. And the lamb they would put on the like some sticks and stuff, but the lamb is the fuel for that fire. It is a lamb that baptizes with fire, is what it is. Wow. And so what that that altar is representing Jesus Christ's life. That he came down instead of being Jehovah on the mountaintop, he comes down as a little lamb so that he can be near to us, and you and I can even approach it. We don't even have to go into the holy place or into the holy holies. We can be in the lone and dreary wilderness and come to that altar and and still engage with the glory of God. Because it's contained in that lamb.

SPEAKER_01 49:58

And be cleansed by it.

SPEAKER_00 49:59

Yeah, and be cleansed by it. Exactly. And so the fur and the way an Israelite could come there, they had to do basically two things. They had to obey the law of Moses, so they keep a covenant of obedience. Okay. And they had to make a sacrifice. And if we're talking about sins, there's five kinds of sacrifices, but I'm just going to focus on the one about sins. If you had a sin that you wanted to repent of, you would kill the animal. Again, the death of the animal was not the point. You had to kill the animal so that you could get to its insides. And then you would pull out the insides of the animal. You could say like the bowels of the animal or the broken heart of the animal, and then you would put that on the fire so that it could be burnt in the fire. It could be baptized with fire. So the idea is, I think it's symbolizing, and I'm not, it's not just me. Psalms 51, I think it is, says this that the sacrifices represent a broken heart and contrite spirit.

SPEAKER_02 50:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:48

Because you're saying, Here, here, Lord, here is my insights. Purify these.

SPEAKER_02 50:53

Right.

SPEAKER_00 50:54

So the sacrifice isn't transactional. It's not, it's not um it. So there's two sacrifices. The the lamb that condescends to the altar that makes the fire come close enough to us that we can even get be baptized with fire. And then you and I just have to give him our insights. We just have to give him our heart.

SPEAKER_01 51:11

That's what that's really deep inside of us. That's right. Yeah. I love that because it's if it was transactional, the size of the heart would matter, all these things, but it's not that. It's whatever you have on the inside. That's what that's what matters.

SPEAKER_00 51:21

Exactly. Yeah. So that at the very least, everyone can, and and before you even make the sacrifice, you know there's a fire there. You can see it. So it's like the light of Christ, right? Like the lamb has come down and it's burning and it's calling to you basically. Come here, come to me, and I will make you whole. I'll make you clean. And so then you go and you make your sacrifice and it makes you clean. The you see this in some of the healing stories in the New Testament. The woman with an issue of blood is maybe one of my favorite scripture stories. Sure. And she she's waiting, you know, to be healed. And what does she do? She reaches out and touches the hem of his robe, which, if we're going to use this temple symbology or tabernacle symbology, is like a veil or one of the curtains. So she's just trying to get close enough to the tabernacle of Christ. Because, and then it says virtue came out of him. The Greek word is dunamos, which means power. So power came out of him and healed. Energy. Yes, energy. It's the glory of what we're talking about. Yeah. And so, and that happens multiple times. Like Luke mentions that many people were trying to do that. If I could just touch him, then that power will come out of him into me and I'll be healed. And the altar in Exodus is mentioned that way too. If you come to the altar, if you touch it, it sanctifies you. So when you and I are going through the temple, there are different times that uh Adam and Eve are asked to go to the altar.

SPEAKER_01 52:42

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 52:43

And and you pay attention to when that happens. Some they're asked to come to the altar early on in the Lone and Drury world. Yep. And then they're asked to go to a different altar. And there's another altar in the holy place we'll talk about in a second. But that first one is the altar of sacrifice. That's where they make covenants of obedience and sacrifice. And also the law of the gospel, which is to be baptized. Because you after you kill the animal, you got to wash the insides too. So you wash it in that labor of water. So you're baptized.

SPEAKER_01 53:08

Because outside in the representatively telestial kingdom, but the outside courtyard, which represents where we all are, those are the two things they could do, right? That's right. They could so they wash the insides of the animal in that, cleansing it, and then they they baptize by fire.

SPEAKER_00 53:20

That's right. So you can see, like even in you know, this tabernacle setting, you see like the patterns that we're basically imitating ourselves. And so in in the in the endowment. And then um, but okay, but he doesn't want us to stay in the valley or in the lone and jury wilderness. He wants us to ascend up the mountain. And so, in order to ascend according to the layout of the tabernacle, I'm gonna use that layout. Uh the next thing to do, the only priest could go into the holy place. Okay, so um you and I then have to be made into priests to go into that next phase. Priests or priestesses. Yeah, priests or priestesses, exactly. And so, and now the reason why that matters is because you remember that story where the apostles come to Christ, it's I think it's um James and John, and they say, When you ascend into heaven, can we sit on your right hand and left hand? And Jesus has to teach them an important lesson where he says, You guys don't really quite get it. Like our to be the greatest in my kingdom, you have to be the servant of all. That's what it means.

SPEAKER_01 54:19

To ascend, you must descend.

SPEAKER_00 54:20

That's right.

SPEAKER_01 54:21

To rise in the kingdom of heaven, you have to descend to your brothers, to the other children on the earth to serve them. Right.

SPEAKER_00 54:27

You have to imitate what Christ does. That's what made him Christ, was his descension. Like it's he uh he became something even more. I mean, he was he was already God before, but he the scriptures talk about there was something added to him even through his dissension. He became more, he became more capable of helping us. And um, and so it's through yeah, that condescension. So we imitate that. That's why we become priests or priestesses or kings and queens, is he's putting us in a position of authority or power, but not to do as the Gentiles do, which is the Lord it over people, but to be a servant of all. And so the covenants associated um with becoming a priest are well, uh one is chastity, right? And that in the Old Testament, there's not a clear line, but there's a line I've made in my head. Yes. The priest had to live by certain marriage laws that no one else had to. So they did have special laws relating to chastity. Um, so basically it's like a higher purity law, right?

SPEAKER_01 55:25

So well, it's a pattern that you're identifying. It's it's like back then it looked a little bit different, but that's that's the whole thing. It's not the context shifts a little bit. Yeah, and that's where people who are skeptical can pick things out. But when you look at the patterns, they're the same. That's why that God is the same today, yesterday, and will be, because that pattern is identical. So when the priest become a priest, there's a higher level of uh of expectation around of around around obedience, and that in this case it's chastity.

SPEAKER_00 55:51

That's right, yeah. And so then the role of a priest within the tabernacle setting was to help help conduct the sacrifices and then also to do the the incense at the altar of incense. So we've talked about the sacrifices a little bit, but so but the idea is my job is to is to help you go through the same process, and that's what we're doing when we go on missions or we go do redemption for the dead, or we teach a lesson in Sunday school or in young men or young women. We're helping people go through that same process. We're helping them make the same sacrifice of a broken heart, contrite spirit. We're helping them um come to the altar, you know, come to Christ. That's the idea. So we do that. That's being a priest or a priestess. And then you also um you you help answer people's prayers. Okay, so the inside of the holy place, there's another altar called the altar of incense, and the incense represents um the prayers of the people ascending to God. Like it gets burned on the altar. Again, there's a fire there, and it's part of the fire that God sent down in the beginning. So it's it's his glory still. And you take the incense and you actually scoop the incense up in your cupped hand. This is like you can find this language in the Hebrew itself.

SPEAKER_01 57:02

Yes. And I'll I'll put the link to the YouTube talk in this show description because in it you have some pictures that actually show graphical interpretations of this that are not LDS, I'm guessing, that are just out there about that. So they would scoop the incense in their hand and then Yeah, you take it to the altar of incense and you would burn it.

SPEAKER_00 57:20

And what you're doing is you're basically saying you're facilitating the prayers of the people so they can ascend to God. And isn't that what we should be doing is helping to answer people's prayers? Yeah. You know, like I want to be an answer to your prayer, not a hindrance to your prayer. And you can do that in lots of ways, obviously, but you should think that symbolically scooping up incense and taking it to the altar of incense is is doing that's what you're doing in real life, is I'm trying to be an answer to to other people's prayers, or I'm trying to help facilitate answers to their prayers. I'm I'm trying to make it so that the their prayer, which is that little incense, can make it onto that fire, uh, be t be touched by God's glory.

SPEAKER_01 57:59

You you said something in your talk about the signs representing um what was it?

Incense Prayer And Priestly Service

SPEAKER_00 58:05

So the signs um they represent uh like different ways of praying. So in the in the um, and there's two ways. You're like if you're looking, if you are praying and you're looking heaven-bound, so there's this psalm, I think it's Psalm 141, and he the Hebrew parallelism, the poetry, says, uh, let my prayer be like the um like the altar of incense. So like basically let my prayer rise up like that smoke. I see. Yeah. And then it says, And let my raised hands be like the evening sacrifice. So the evening sacrifice remember in the morning and evening, there's sacrificing a lamb to keep that fire burning, and that there's also smoke always ascending. Uh and actually Jehovah says in Leviticus that the smoke of these sacrifices are a pleasing aroma to him. It's creating a new atmosphere. You see, like you know, a new breath of God. Yeah, the pleasing aroma it has shares the the root word for breath or spirit or wind, right? So it's like we live in a fallen world that's cut off from God's presence, but this this sacrificial system, this tabernacle, if you're around it, there's a new air.

SPEAKER_02 59:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 59:10

You know, that you're that you so you're uh there are two things that actually happen. You're breathing it in, so every breath is like the glory of God being breathed in, and then the blood of the animals being poured out onto the ground. And so remember Cain's blood or Abel's blood was poured out onto the ground. But if if the sacrifice if the uh blood of the of Christ basically that's being represented is poured into the ground, what will the ground return to us? It will return life.

SPEAKER_01 59:36

You reap what you sow.

SPEAKER_00 59:37

Yeah, yes, you reap what you sow. So see what he's doing is he's creating a new earth and a new atmosphere, a new heavens for you to live in so that you can, so that the earth isn't like your antagonist anymore, and that the air, you're not cut off from God's presence in the air. Your whole life is just filled with his presence wherever it is, wherever you are, if you're around that altar. Um, and and so it's yeah, it's like a new heaven and new earth. So I okay, so the altar of incense. So you come to the altar of incense and the prayer, sorry, the evening prayer. So you raise your hands up, let my hands be lifted up like the evening sacrifice. So it's going up. So one idea uh there is that if you're raising your hands up to pray, it's like you're reaching up towards God, just like that smoke is reaching up towards God.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:24

Got it.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:24

And that as you lift your voice to God, it's rising up to God like that smoke is rising up to God. And so when nobody prayed with their arms folded like we do in preaching, yeah, that's a modern thing. It's a modern thing, yeah. And that's fine, there's nothing wrong with it. But everyone prayed with uplifted hands because that's what they're trying to do, is like it's it's almost like a little kid reaching up to their parent.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:44

Like, you know, it's a physical gesture to help them mentally imagine what's going on. You know, I I we've been uh counseled before in general conference to really pray with thinking about the savior and trying to materialize that and making it real instead of just saying words. So that was their way of doing that.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:59

Yes, yeah, yeah. And then there were other um another way of thinking about it too, is on the flip side, is that the uh every day the a priest would give what's called the priestly blessing. And so they would they would again with uplifted hands. Now now they're a conduit. So they're uh in the prayer, you're trying to go from earth to heaven, and in the blessing, you're trying to pull heaven down to the people.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:22

And they had their hands up in the air.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:24

Yeah, because you're you're like a lightning rod. You're you know, you're meant to conduct God's presence from above down through you into the people. Okay. And so, and that's what they would do, is and in the priestly blessing, it's in number six, they would say something like, Let God's face shine upon you, um, you know, let his countenance be upon you. So it's again, it's this idea of his presence is shining on you through the blessing. And and then it says, And this, and thus shall my name be put upon them. So the the name of Jehovah, which is like his identity, his essence, is being transferred to them through the priestly blessing. And really what's being transferred is his glorious countenance shining on them. So it's another way of talking about all the same stuff we've been talking about.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:10

It's you know, so it's fun because when you think about these things without talking about them specifically, because we have to be careful in our language, there is this concept of transformation now that I see in the endowment. It because all I see it's almost a paradox in a sense that like to understand the connection to the atonement in Christ, to understand that in the temple, I need to understand the Old Testament.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:30

Isn't that funny? Like to go to a place where like it was all about prophesying that he would come. There's many religions who use the Old Testament as their source material for their faith. We have to look to the Old Testament in order to really make and unlock some of these things to understand, but it's also the context, but understanding the temple and how that really relates to Christ. Because now when I see the altar, I'll think of the sacrifice of the Lamb.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:53

I'll think of the law of obedience and sacrifice and how he made that possible. I'll think about the signs and the and the different things we do in the temple as a way of connecting me to become more like Christ through serving others because of what those represent. Yeah, it's pretty powerful.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:06

Yeah, and then that and that second altar, too. If you remember, in the in the endowment, you move from the lone and dreary wilderness into the terrestrial world, which is the holy place.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:14

In the old days, you would change rooms. Yes, you would to a totally different altar, which was more congruent with the Old Testament.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:19

That's right. And you and it's at that altar. So we need to remember that as we're going through this. Think the first altar is the altar of sacrifice, the second would be like the altar of incense, and it's there where the prayers happen. Yes. See, and that's where we do we do prayer together. And we're not just praying for ourselves, we're praying for uh basically others. Oh my goodness. I just had a priestly service.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:39

I just had a major unlock. Anyway, keep going.

The Veil As Being Lifted Home

SPEAKER_00 1:03:41

Yeah, no, it's a priestly service. We're doing what a priest would do in the holy place. And then then you're prepared at that point to go through the veil into the Holy of Holies. And the reason why you're prepared is because you've given you started to live a life of consecration. Yes. You've moved past like thinking about yourself. And now because you because it is the self, as you were saying before, that blocks our ability to enter into God's full presence. So as you lose yourself in his life, you know, you shall receive it, right? That's what he says. Lose your life from me, and then you'll gain it. And that's what's happening through that, through those covenants of consecration and everything, is you're losing your life in service of him. And now you're ready, you're prepared to go through the veil. And it's at the veil where um where you have uh, well, let me I let see if there's a way I can talk about it. That um one of my favorite stories, maybe to talk, there's two. One is um brother of Jared, and one is um is Elijah healing the boy. Okay, so Elijah, I'll start with Elijah. Elijah, you know the story where he heals like the widow's son? Yes. It's a weird story, really. Think about it, because he like lays down on top of this kid who's dead, and he basically like hand to hand and mouth to mouth and like knee to knee. He's like basically, you know, mirroring him. Mirroring, yes. But what I think is happening is Elijah is a conduit, he's transferring as God's prophet, God's power through him into this boy. It's like, oh, your your eyes need healing. Well, then we'll touch eye to eye. If your you know mouth needs healing, we'll touch mouth to mouth, we'll do nose to nose, you know, like so. This is head to toe. This is head to toe, complete, yeah. So something like that's happening in initiatory where you're being um, and we can talk about that more if you want, because being anointed with oil and water and everything, these and it's very symbolic of Christ. Again, that's the goodness of Christ He's trying to put onto us. But in the context that the veil, the veil is not you and I are standing because in order to do this, you and I have to stand face to face with each other. Yeah, but you should think of it as you're actually probably laying down because the veil is up, right? See, we have to do this horizontally because of laws. Yeah, mobility, the laws of physics, gravity, and everything. But really, what's happening is we're going. Going up. We're ascending. And so when we get to the veil, we're like more going upward. Yeah, on our backs. And the person who's helping us come through the veil is reaching down to get us. And so that they're grabbing us. And in that grabbing, in that touching, it's just like any other time when Christ touches something or with Heavenly Father touches, there's a transfer. And what's being transferred? Um, God's essence is identity. Boring. Yeah. And it's something, and it's not just the reason why I like the priestly blessing name is because it's not just like, you know, Cameron. It's it's multiple sentences of a name that is describing a change in the state of your being. And that's what's happening at the veil, too, is there's you're being given a new identity that describes like a change in the state of your being. You're actually becoming like God through that process. He's transferring his essence to you.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:54

And something I just want to throw in there as I'm thinking about it is it feels like it's it's a pr it's a personal transformation, but it's also one that distends through your lineage as well. Yeah. For sure. Because when I think about that pro that moment that that occurs, I I think that power is so so amazing. It it if it actually runs through us, transforming us, but then goes through our descendants.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:14

Yes. Yeah. And so then the brother Jared's similar thing, right? Christ puts his hand through the veil and whatever he touches glows. Yeah. Even stones. Totally. So you and I are being transformed in that last final moment before we go through the veil, so that we can actually enter in through the veil.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:30

And um and I love that symbolic that symbolism of like we're being lifted up, like we're being pulled in from someone who's trying to bring us back.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:38

Yes. There's a scripture where Lehi says, I beheld his glory and I was encircled in the arms of his love. I think it's interesting he brings those two concepts together because I think that might be what's happening with the veil too, is as we behold his glory, we're also simultaneously encircled in the arms of his love.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:54

And I think not to get emotional, but I think um, you know, we have a son who's coming home from a mission in August, and I think about encircling him in the arms of our love. I think that's what that moment's gonna be like. I think that's like that on on a higher degree of of like we don't think of it as like angels standing as sentinels and like we're trying to like just you know, I'm sure there's an element of that because justice and mercy do exist, but but that being encircled in the arms of his love is like, oh my gosh, I've missed you so much.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:22

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:23

It's it's this thing of like finally, finally you're home. And it's it's this like I've missed you. This was this was what you needed, but man, I'm I'm just so much happier that you're back. It's the same thing with my son, right? Like, yeah, I just I I'm so excited to see him, and there's nowhere else I'd want him to be right now. Yeah, even though it can be hard. So I think it's a very small personal you know take on that.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:45

Yeah, I love that. I think it's great. One one last thought on the through about the veil. We're laying down right in and so in order to in order to pull someone up in that situation, I always like to think of like Lord of the Rings, right? So at the end of that movie, the return of the king, uh Frodo falls, you know, falls off the ledge and he's hanging there, and Sam reaches over. Now Frodo's had his finger bitten off, and there's so his hand's bloody, and Sam and Frodo try to grab hands so that he can pull him upwards off the edge of a cliff, basically. Because if Frodo were to fall, he would fall into lava, which is like falling into hell, basically. And so he but as they grab hands, it's too slippery, right? It's he can't get a good enough hold on each other until they grab by the wrists. And then he's has enough leverage against the forces that are pulling down to be able to pull Frodo up. And so I would I I would just suggest that maybe something similar is happening at the veil, is that the purpose of uh at the veil again is that God is pulling us up against all the forces that are trying to pull us down. But in order for him to do that, we have to be bound to him in such a strong way that it can't be broken. And and so what that those what all that's symbolizing is as I keep my covenants with him, it's like I'm letting him get a stronger hold on me. Yeah, I'm letting him uh grip me harder in that in those arms of love. And and so, and nothing will be able to stop him from pulling me up. You know, and so and because the only thing that was stopping it before was my own agency, as we've talked about, my own my own uh you know, choices or and even in it, and also the fall, just generally speaking, we all because the f we all just kind of suffered the fall, it just happens. And so, but he's pulling us out of that too. It's a like the fall is like gravity in that analogy. It's just always trying to pull you down. And um God is the reverse, he's pulling you up. So that's kind of I think if we think of the atonement that way, um, instead of like a payment model, what it becomes is uh you were saying it before, every chance God gets to transfer a bit of himself onto us, he's gonna do it. Every chance he gets to pull us a little closer, he's gonna do it. Every chance he gets to try to get closer to us, he's gonna do it. And that is atonement. That is that one meant. And um and that's what's being symbolized and represented in in that endowment. And we're given, as you go up, you're given new clothing, not just a coat of skins, but robes, garments of glory and beauty, as how uh Leviticus and Exodus talk about them. Then I think in the temple we even say they're they're garments of glory. So it's as if, like Isaiah when he ascended, it's as if God is putting more and more light on you, more of his glory, and you're transforming into a new kind of being that can go higher and higher and higher.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:43

That's so beautiful. I think about that transformation. I now see everything that we do in the temple and those different like steps that we take are representative of a transformation. I just want to encourage everyone who's listening to really dive into that idea of the transformation of all these and the progression of all the things that we do there as direct results of God's love and glory for us, specifically through the atonement of Jesus Christ.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:06

Yeah. And every and every one of those things is something we're doing to come towards him, but also something he's doing to come towards us. See, and it's that it's that mote, it's that direction of us reaching to him and him reaching to us that's atonement.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:18

Come nearer to me and I will come nearer unto you. It's like that's a literal, he couldn't say it any more clearly than that. That's right. It's like every step he's he he can't come down and take away our agency and bring us up. He can he can definitely give us a coat of skins. He can do anything he can, he can even dwell in a tabernacle near us, but we have to knock. We have to take those steps because that was the point. And and by using our agency, every inch that we give, he gives us a mile.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:42

Yeah. Yeah.

Ransom Language Without An Angry God

SPEAKER_01 1:12:44

So, Cameron, thank you so much. This has been unbelievable. And I love the way that your your head and your heart work together. I think this is one of the spiritual gifts that you were given to truly bless others. And I think that 20-year period of resistance was what you paid in order to get to this point now where you can share it with others. So let's do a rapid fire set of questions to wrap things up. Yeah. Um, the first question is that the scriptures contain a high degree of language that talk about the atonement or at least this relationship with God as like a debt.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:12

And like paying the debt and all these different elements. And since that was something that really didn't land for you, can you now speak into that as to help help us get clear in terms of that love?

SPEAKER_00 1:13:21

Yeah. So when you really press into those statements where it talks about um ransom or redemption, those are actually the words. So there's never an or bought. I bought you, right? Yeah. Um the the the person that what's you're being bought from is not from an angry God, though. So that's number one. Okay. Okay. Number two is that um the what in order to buy us or redeem us, Christ had to come to us. That's the price he paid. See, like if you if as I was describing, if if if it really, if I'm really right, and I believe I'm right on this, if if to descend means to shed glory, then as you come down, your pain increases as your glory decreases. And as your um, and as your glory increases, your pain decreases. They're like in an inverse relationship to each other. And so in order to get to us, to rescue us, to ransom us from the fall, from death, and everything, he had to pay a price to get to us. It was a severe price. He had to lay his glory by, he had to condescend. So he definitely paid a price. So all that language works still. It's just that it's not that it's a payment necessarily to satisfy an angry God.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:31

It's with an account that we have with him.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:33

That's right. Yeah, exactly. It is a price that Christ paid to draw near unto us so that he could, because uh the rescue couldn't happen remotely. I think the example that was given that I shared in the fireside is the rescue of those boys that were stuck in that cave in Thailand.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:49

Um, they that was a powerful story. Those boys were deep inside of a cave with layers of tunnels. I don't know how it wasn't, I don't know if it was miles, but they did not know how to get these boys out. And so you're saying that the rescue was they had to send someone down to the boys.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:02

That's right. And those guys that did the rescue paid a price. I mean, they were putting a lot on the line to do that, um, to get to where they were. So Christ to get to us has to pay a price to get to us. If to get to wherever Cameron Leduc is, he has to suffer all the things that Cameron Leduc has suffered.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:19

To find me where I am. You know, or you can even think of like the shepherd with the lost sheep. If a lost sheep is run off into the crags of a valley or something, the shepherd has to follow the same path that the sheep took to get to it. I mean, maybe he doesn't in every instance, but you kind of get the general idea. He has to go through the bushes and everything that that scraped up the sheep that's gonna scrape him up too. He has to, you know, if there's a mud bog, he's gonna have to cross that mud bog too. So all of the pain that the sheep went through by wandering off, the shepherd will suffer too to get to it. And that is a price paid to protect that sheep or to get those boys out of that cave. And someone, though, has to stay. I like the the rep the cave rescue because someone has to stay outside to stay to ground. Yes, to communicate and ground the rescuer. And that's Heavenly Father. See, so Heavenly Father, Jesus was doing the will of the Father, which means the Father is on our side too. He wants the rescue, he loves us, and but he has to stay in a world of glory so that he can continue to communicate with the rescuer with Christ, who's now you know gone down into the cave, you could say, to get us. And um, and he has to maintain a connection with him so that that rescuer doesn't get lost in the caves themselves, right? And so, um, and so there's I like that imagery because now the father, if that's who the father is, he's on our side, he's part of the rescue operation. Um, and that's why he stays where he is. He's not staying there because he doesn't care, he's aloof. It's because someone needs to stay on the dry ground. Some not not everyone jumps into the danger when there's a rescue. Somebody has to be in the safe place. And then um, so that that's how I would say it. And then ransom and redemption, another way of looking at it, the last point on this one, is like the Exodus. The children of Israel, in order to get to that point where they had had Christ dwelling among them in the tabernacle, they first had to be freed from bondage as slaves.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:11

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:12

And that's a ransom or a redemption. They were bought out of their slavery through the the uh Passover, which symbolizes Christ, right? So it's Christ, uh what he's doing is redeeming us, which is a word for like buying out. He's buying us out of or ransoming us from our bondage. And our bondage is just it could be the fall, it could be our own habits and addictions, it could be whatever it is. It's not necessarily the account that you were, you know, we've been talking about. It's not God with a ledger saying, uh, there's still, you know, a problem here we need to fix. It's just that the problem is internal to us. I'm just I'm stuck with with the consequences of my actions. I'm stuck with the fall. I have deeper.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:58

I I'm I'm go through pain because of my further condescension.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:02

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:03

And so it I love that word condescension and and pain and that inverse relationship because to me it just feels more um, it feels just more like gravity, like it just exists in versus like, you know what I mean, transactional. Yes. And I think that's a beautiful concept because you know one thing that you were talking to that hit me hard, Cameron, is I don't think we really understand. I mean, we talk a lot, like we we we always focus on the atonement as we should. Part of that atonement was the suffering the father went through. Yeah. You know, like you said, he was on in that glory state. He had to stay there and send the son to do the will of the father. The will of the father asked, we always talk about how he sacrificed his only begotten son. We have no idea the pain that that was for him to allow a son who had never strayed one second to be willing to come down and suffer one person for each of us, for Will, for Cameron, for all the people. That's why the Savior's infinite atonement was was so painful. And that pain was shared by the father.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:03

And in the father in a different way. If we've ever heard had a child suffer, we suffer in a different way as a parent when those things happen. In some cases, worse. So I just think it's an interesting observation that like that condescension, although it was made by Jesus, was was endured by father and the son, because they are one.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:18

They are, yeah. Yeah. So I think that I mean, there's a lot more I could say on that. Um, and if if you want to keep going, but we can do bigger.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:27

Let's let's have you come back. This is definitely I I want you to come back, Cameron. I'm very excited about uh what we can do at Temple Bound to help.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:34

Okay.

Rapid Fire And What We Get Wrong

SPEAKER_01 1:19:34

Because you don't, you know, usually when have someone has this kind of ideas and stuff, they've already published books, they've already got courses, they've got something around it. So I'm excited to be a a starting point. Um, some lighter uh rapid fire questions. Yeah, favorite temple.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:49

Oh my goodness. Um I'm just gonna say Gilbert, the Gilbert Temple. It's mine too.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:54

Yeah. Yeah, we're neighbors. Um, what is something that um what's something about the temple that most people get wrong?

SPEAKER_00 1:20:04

Oh yeah. Um, I think they get wrong the idea that you know, there's that quote from Brigham Young that uh the purpose of the endowment is to help you pass by the angels who stand as sentinels, and we interpret that as there are these guardians there that are stiff arming us, yeah, stiff arming us. And it's really more of a way of saying that we're not ready to come back. So the cherubim with the flaming sword, there are angels standing as sentinels at the edge of the Garden of Eden. The word the sword is often a symbol of God's word. Yes. In the beginning, God's word was life-giving. Now it's now it's a flaming sword that'll chop us up if we try to go past it. That though, so the point is, is something happened so that God's word went from being life-giving to now death dealing.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:47

And so, and that isn't because God changed, it's because Adam and Eve changed.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:52

See, so it goes back to that glory concept again. The sentinels are actually protecting us from entering before we're ready because the word of God would would ultimately destroy us. Instead of us trying to get in there, like, and it's like a bouncer at a club, and he's like, sorry, you don't you don't qualify, you're not tall enough, it's like a ride at Disney and some fat. It's people going, Oh no, we want you in, honey, but you if you tried right now, you don't you keep trying. Come back, come back though when you're ready.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:17

That's a you said it much better than I said it.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:19

Oh, I think that was a team effort. I love that because honestly, I was struggling with that a little bit until you said that. So thank you. Um, and last thing, you have descendants. This is part temple, part family history. This is the family history part. Your kids are gonna be watching this, your great grandkids are gonna see this. What would you want them to know about the atonement in the temple?

SPEAKER_00 1:21:37

Um, I want them to know that um Jesus Christ will never leave you. He uh he walks with you in the wilderness. He's that's that's his character. He's always been that way. He's always the guy that descends to come to you to make to make things possible for you, whether it was in the creation story, whether it's with the Israelites in the wilderness, whether it's with the issue with the woman with the issue of blood, whether it's in Gethsemane or Calvary, whatever it is, that that's just who he is. And I want them to know that because there will be times in their life when they will feel alone, but they're not, even if they feel that way. He's he's there, he's Emmanuel, God with us. And because he is, you always have the chance to ascend the mountain. It's never too late. That's what I want them to know.

Final Witness And Instagram Invite

SPEAKER_01 1:22:28

Cameron, thank you so much. And thank you everyone for tuning into Temple Bound, this very special episode, Cameron. Um, we will put the link to that wonderful must-watch YouTube video in the show notes. And uh yeah, thanks again for being on the show. Thank you. Appreciate it. Thanks again for listening to today's episode of Temple Bound. If you enjoyed today's show, make sure to join us over on Instagram at Temple Bound Podcast to receive additional information as well as previews of our upcoming episodes. See you over there.