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Temple Bound
Katie's Path to Forgiveness After Betrayal and Loss
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Forgiveness gets called a miracle for a reason. It asks us to do something that feels outside our own capability, and then it delivers peace that only the Savior can provide.
In this episode of Temple Bound, host Will Humphreys sits down with Katie, an institute teacher who has spent years teaching The Divine Gift of Forgiveness by Elder Neil L. Andersen. Katie walks through what repentance actually means in its original Hebrew and Greek roots, why the Latin translation buried it in shame, and how two of the hardest experiences of her life, her father's arrest and her husband's addiction, taught her that forgiveness was never about the other person. It was about her own peace.
Katie also shares how she and her late husband Brandon rebuilt trust after his struggle with pornography came to light, why she believes the real opposite of trauma is trust rather than peace, and how she found joy even in planning his funeral after he died unexpectedly of a stroke. She closes with practical guidance for anyone who feels too far gone for the Atonement, and for any parent, spouse, or bishop who wants to be a safe place when someone finally works up the courage to confess.
Key takeaways:
- Repentance means to turn to God. The shame around it came from a Latin mistranslation, not from the original meaning of the word.
- Fear and pride are the Twin Bullies that stop repentance before it starts, even when they disguise themselves as humility.
- No one has sinned beyond the reach of the Atonement, no matter how far gone it feels.
- Forgiveness is not for the person who hurt you. It is for you, and it lifts a weight you may not realize you are carrying.
- The real opposite of trauma is trust, not peace. Peace follows once trust is in place.
- Saying "thank you for telling me" first can make all the difference when someone confesses something hard.
- Healing and joy can exist in the same moment, even in the middle of grief.
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Featured book: The Divine Gift of Forgiveness by Elder Neil L. Andersen
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Why Forgiveness Can Feel Impossible
SPEAKER_00Thank you again for tuning into Temple Bound. Today's guest is Katie Young, and this is an episode for people who are struggling in forgiving somebody. Someone who has maybe betrayed you, hurt you beyond repair, it might seem. Because Katie Young has gone through some experiences that we're going to talk about, such as her father being arrested and her family being blown apart, and then she, within the same period of time, lost her husband suddenly without warning. In this episode, we're going to talk about forgiveness as it pertains to being a miracle, and how it's really not about the other person at all. It's about accepting the apology that maybe we'll never get. And when it comes to peace, how that's a miracle, truly a miracle that only the Savior can provide. Katie is a beautiful example of this. And I can't wait for you to hear how she describes this experience from a place of love and forgiveness. Katie, thank you so much for being on the show. Why do you love teaching this book, The Divine Gift of Forgiveness from Neil Anderson?
SPEAKER_01Well, mostly because it is such a universal topic. I get to teach at the Tempe Institute, and a third of our students aren't members of the church. And so every single class I teach has about that same population. I'll have a third that aren't members of the church, probably about a third of students that were raised in the church but are struggling with their faith, not sure if they really want to belong to our church anymore, and a third that are more in it, right? They want to be there. And so it's really a unique experience teaching Institute in Tempe because other places don't have that. And so when I teach the divine gift of forgiveness, what's awesome is that it just puts everybody kind of on a on a level playing field because every single person has had the need to repent, or if they don't have that vocabulary yet, something that they've maybe regret doing or saying or a relationship that they've kind of made a choice where where they wish they could take back. And every single person has had an experience in life where they need to forgive somebody, or maybe they don't want to yet, but they've felt wronged and don't know how to kind of move past this anger or um bitterness. And so this book addresses all of that. And everyone, no matter who you are, where you're coming from, has had that experience. And this book helps you address it and feel loved and seen by God. And it's just, it's really cool.
SPEAKER_00I I love Neil Anderson. Um I had a privileged opportunity to meet him back before he became an apostle when he was a regional general authority in El Paso, Texas. And the thing that I remember most about him was how funny he was. Humor's a big deal for me. And they were at these the state conference, and he was like literally, he wasn't doing like a stand-up routine, but it was close. Like the audience, it was la they were laughing. And I just remember and I never I haven't really seen that side, as you should probably don't get to see at your own conference, but this book is very special.
Repentance Without Shame Or Punishment
SPEAKER_00And it makes me wonder, Katie, from your perspective, what do people get wrong about repentance?
SPEAKER_01Oh absolutely what repentance means. Because we have sort of this negative connotation with repentance, that it's something to be ashamed of, that repentance means I'm being punished. And the whole reason why, it's it's etymological. It's we have translated the word repentance from the Latin root. Let me let me back up actually. Okay, so the old testament word for repentance is I'm gonna mispronounce it, shub, shubay, s-h-u-b-e is how it's spelled. And in Hebrew, that just means to turn to God, to turn away from sin and to turn to God. What a beautiful thing, right? And if you know that that's the meaning of repentance is, then when President Nelson says, find joy and daily repentance, I want everyone to know that I'm repenting and that I'm turning to God every single day. I'm gonna I'm repenting right now. I'm repenting today, and I'm repenting tomorrow, and I want to repent the day after that, and I want to repent every day, and I want to tell everybody about it. And it's joyful because I'm just turning to God. Instead of being like, oh, I don't want anyone to know I have to repent for something. Oh no, I can't, I can't repent because then other people will know and I'm ashamed. And if you know that the true original meaning for repentance was to turn away from sin and just to turn to God, then you want to do that and you're not ashamed of that. And then the New Testament translation is in Greek, and that was meta noeo, which President Nelson also taught a lot about, meta meaning to change, and that noeo is connected to your brain, your mind, air, even, and so it's just kind of changing the the change that comes with repentance as we're turning to God, we're becoming changed, we're becoming a new creature in Him, we we are becoming more like Him, right? Well, then it gets translated into Latin. And the Latin root that they cho chose to use was ponetare, which is is punishment. It's connected to punishment, and then we get repentance af off of the Latin root, and so uh that like penance, the all of that is a ta is tied to punishment, and that's why we feel shame, or that's why we want to avoid it, because it's gonna hurt. And repentance, even turning to God, that sometimes that hurts. You have to let something go, you have to turn away from something that maybe is a habit or uh makes you feel numb, or you know, like so so even turning to God might come with a little bit of pain, but it's not because of punishment. And so that's what people get wrong about repentance. Yeah. When we see it as shameful, punishment.
SPEAKER_00Well, punishment implies anger. Punishment implies um like negative judgment, uh frustration. And we've all we've all look, we're human beings, we all grew up in homes where we have imperfect parents. I am an imperfect parent who, as I get older, I'm starting to let that like that version of parenting go, this like intense thing where it's like, well, if you gotta you gotta correct them or they won't ever, ever know. But it it's what I'm hearing you say is that it is so it is almost like one of the most love-centric words out there.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. Absolutely. All God wants for his children is for them to return to him, to return to live with him, and he wants to be able to give his children everything that he has. And the only way that we can do that is to turn to him and become more like him. And so it is. It's nothing but love.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I love that. I love that because you know, when I hear those words, I feel a lot of hope. I feel a lot of hope that like, you know, repentance isn't this thing that I think not just our faith, but like all faiths have gotten wrong to some degree because there's this like shame, punishment, like that part of it, and it even shows up in the scriptures that I'd like to double-click on later. But I know people who are listening to this and they're like, yeah, Katie, it's supposed to be a joyful experience and all these things, but not but you don't know what I've done. There are people who like, yeah, but you don't know how badly I've sinned. What would you say to those people?
SPEAKER_01Well, uh again, I wish I could find the quote really quickly, but you're essentially saying that you don't really believe in the atonement of Jesus Christ. That you've out sinned the atonement, and that's not possible. I think it's Jeffrey R. Holland that has given a a talk where he he has a quote that where he says something along the lines of Um you you've never sinned so far where the atonement can't reach. Um and I don't know if we can maybe like find it.
SPEAKER_00That's maybe a quote we can definitely Google, but absolutely but just keep talking, I'm gonna look it up.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Um that's what you're saying. And essentially that is pride. One of the things that one of the chapters in this book is called the Twin Bullies. And the twin bullies are fear and pride, and how they go hand in hand. It's chapter 12, twin bullies wanting to prevent our repentance. And when we say things like, Oh, but you don't know what I've done, the atonement can't touch me, that means you think that you're better than the atonement, essentially. You you outsmarted it. No, you didn't. No, you didn't. Like so when you feel that way, recognize that that's a bully trying to prevent your repentance and humble yourself, like, okay, if the atonement touched even this, it covers even this. How? Why? Oh, why because he loves me? Why because he still wants me back no matter what? He made a way, he provided a way. How then can I feel that love? How then can I really use the atonement of Jesus Christ in my life so that I can feel clean again and feel peace again and feel joy again and feel that true love from him again.
SPEAKER_00I love that, you know, and it really opens the door for people to understand, but I think they have to experience it themselves too. I know I had to. For me, repentance has been this evolution of understanding for me in such a massive way that it it took me having the courage to almost like finally talk to somebody about what was going on. Um I think a lot of times people are so ra I think the adversary loves to get us spinning in our heads around like, well, do you need to talk to a church leader or not? You know, because like that takes it to a different level.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, one of my guests, Curtis Keller, who's a current member of a state presidency, said, I'm not ashamed to admit, I felt one time, I don't know if this has been cleared up, and I talked to my priesthood authority. And and it's just, I think that that that is a an important step for people, but not always from the place that they think. It's like they have to confess so that a judge of Israel can for, you know. No, it's it's for our benefit to get clarity because the adversary's attacks. This is where this is where the adversary comes in hard, is if we give him a little bit of space. And so he'll have a spinning our heads. And so if you're if you're listening to this and you're just like, yeah, I've never really sure I'm not really sure. There's nothing wrong with talking to somebody about it.
Talking To Leaders Without Fear
SPEAKER_00Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_01Well, that's where the other twin bully comes in, right? The fear. Because there's fear that I haven't done enough to clear it up. But there's also the fear of like, and then if I do, what are they gonna say? They thought I was this great person, and now that I'm telling them this, they're gonna be like, oh, you are terrible. You aren't who I thought you were. And and almost everybody, I I can't say it's a hundred percent of the time because because people in positions of leadership, priesthood leadership, but bishops, stake presidents, there's still just men in a volunteer position with with no training really, not a lot at least. And so they're doing the best they can. But but really the what they feel, and and most people who've had the experience of of finally going, humbling themselves and going and talking to somebody about it, they're surprised even how much love they receive. Because what's happening on the other end, every bishop I've talked to is like, oh my goodness, you want to turn to God. Yay, thank you. How can I help you do that? And that's the reaction of of bishops and stake presidents way more than you did what?
SPEAKER_00Right, right. It's they're used to it. It's one of those things where I know we we again we have to be careful because there's different pieces, but what I would advise as people are listening to this if they feel like they need to talk to somebody, is be prayer for prayerful on who they should talk to about it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Because, you know, sometimes um, you know, it it's almost always gonna be the bishop. But if you have any sort of peaceful connection with any anyone, that's okay to go talk to that person.
SPEAKER_02Totally.
SPEAKER_00And you know, there's other opportunities that come up. You know, we have interviews sometimes with members of the stake presidency, if we're getting temple recommends, it's okay. They can't, they're not necessarily gonna be the person who's in charge of it, but like just there's a there's something about that process that changes, at least that's how I started to see repentance differently, is that in talking to leaders, just to get clarity, I was able to feel this like lack of judgment in the way that punishment was pronounced. Yeah. Is this the quote you were looking for?
SPEAKER_01Yes. However late you think you are, however many chances you think you have missed, however many mistakes you feel you have made, or talents you think you don't have, or however far from home and family and God you feel you have traveled, I testify that you have not traveled beyond the reach of divine love. It is not possible for you to sink lower than the infinite light of Christ's atonement shines. Incredible. That's from Jeffrey R. Holland in his talk, The Laborers in the Vineyard from the April 2012 General Conference. So excellent.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01The other the one other one other thing I wanted to say just in regards to uh priesthood leadership when someone comes to talk, if there is like a bishop or state president listening, I hope you also, if you don't already feel this, I hope that you recognize that if someone's coming to you, they're coming to you with a lot of fear and a lot of humility, and that you s celebrate that they are turning to God.
SPEAKER_00Yes. I I think that's a big thing, you know. Um in my family, I've had the privilege of working with various individuals who have struggled in different ways. And um that was something that someone taught me, by the way, is that when someone this isn't just for bishops and stake presents.
SPEAKER_01I think parents, oh my goodness, if a parent, if a kid comes to you, please recognize that they are trying to turn to God. They are so scared and they have finally humbled themselves. It is, it should be one of the most sacred experiences you have with your children. If they are coming to you with something that they regret or are ashamed of, and I hope you celebrate the fact that they're turning to God and you just envelop them with love.
SPEAKER_00I felt the spirit so strong when you said that. I for every parent listening, please hear me on this. Is that when especially if it's a first-time young, young child that's your oldest that's like coming up into teenage, and when they share anything that is like shameful for them or fearful for them, anything, especially if it's like sin related. I wish I'd learned earlier how to not get in my own head about my fear, because it's in my head, the fear is just like, what am I supposed to do with this information? I've never been trained on how to handle this. And so in my mind, either I'm gonna be reactionary, because that's how my parents may have been, for example, not saying me personally, but definitely we could all relate to that. Or we're just stressed because we're like, what do I do with this? And like, what does this mean? And sometimes it changes the way as a parent we go, wait a minute, I thought my child was like this. And the greatest gift, I think, when a when a child shows their humanity to us is realizing that like we are helly father and helly mother. We're not. We don't we our expectations that we put on them in that way.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00And so when they come to us uh to celebrate it. So if we don't know what to do, here's training 101. If someone comes in our family, it could be a spouse even. Oh thank you so much for telling me.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely.
Forgiving A Father After Arrest
SPEAKER_01Another thing that I love about this book is the forgiveness part, is talking about how to forgive others because it's it's why I'm so passionate about this book. Because I have learned personally that forgiving someone is not for them. It's not for the person you're forgiving, it's for you. It is when when we're holding on to anger, bitterness, heartbreak, it's heavy. It's so heavy. And I know when I have experienced some of the biggest heartbreaks, it's when I finally forgive that I feel light again. And and it's for me. It's it's not for that person. So the first experience I had where I really just felt the heaviness of anger and even shame and sadness was um it happened about I think about 10 years ago now. My dad, who was like my hero, we were super close growing up. Um my dad was arrested right in front of me for something I never fathomed he was capable of doing. And and how old were you? I was in my 30s, so so I was probably since it happened about 10 years ago, I was probably about 32. So I had a husband, I had kids, I had my own family, which I was so grateful for that I kind of had that because I think it would have been a lot harder had I been a teenager and got going through this. But my dad was a high school math teacher, and he had a relationship with a student and um was arrested, obviously. And it was foundation shattering. It was brutal, and it was crazy how much shame I felt about it. Like it was a reflection of me somehow, because I always felt like like we were close and we were similar and um you made me who I was, you know, kind of idea, right? And all of a sudden I'm like, wait, what? Then who am I? And anyway, it was it was just so heartbreaking because our family was kind of blown up and and you just lose this idea of who your dad is and who what what your family is, and and so I was angry, I was heartbroken, and it was so, so heavy. And I remember the day that I um that I forgave my dad because I felt like a literal weight was lifted off my shoulders. It was so heavy to feel all this pain. And um and I worked for it. I mean, I really worked for it. I wanted to get there. And but and I was so grateful once I I could tell that I was. And it doesn't mean that I've never felt angry again or sad again.
SPEAKER_00But that's not okay. That's a I thought that let's double-click on that because that's I think it's big for people, is that like you have this moment of forgiveness and yet you were still processing the emotions.
SPEAKER_01Aaron Powell I I when I talk about it with my students, I talk about how it's like kind of cyclical. Okay. And so so what happens is the the cycle gets smaller. Like it it feels less painful with with each time. And and it's smaller because the the moments of pain or sadness, anger are shorter also that that round until it kind of just it fades away. It's happening less often, less less big, you know. I don't know. Uh that's that's how it's been for me.
SPEAKER_00I think that's true for all trauma. Um if you don't mind me just jumping in quickly before because I don't want to interrupt this great story. I just I think it's important for everyone who's listening to recognize that forgiveness is um the key element when it comes to healing trauma. And sin, whether it's our own sin or other people's sin, is a neurologic and mental trauma that we experience. Our bodies actually absorb and we feel trauma physically in our bodies because our spirit and our bodies are so connected. And so that cyclic response we can see elsewhere in the human body. Being a physical therapist, I could tell you about like the inflammation cycles of mechanical injuries, but the spiritual injuries have their same cyclic uh experiences. And forgiveness is the is it one of those core elements. So you even though you experienced it, which was a miraculous gift, 100%. There was still frustration, anger, and then more forgiveness. And is that what you're saying?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. When and when I say that that um I I worked to forgive my dad, it um I I didn't feel like I was doing it alone either. I mean, truly, it is because of the atonement of Jesus Christ that I was capable of even getting there, right? That it was it happened quicker once I turned to him. You know, at first I was mad at even him. So I was mad at all men. I I remember the first time I listened to General Conference after my dad's arrest, and I was like, what have you done? I mean, I like I literally had a thought about every person I met.
SPEAKER_00Thank you for sharing that. Because I think there's so many people who could just be like, thank you.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. So I'm like, I was there. Trust me, it wasn't like it was like the next day. I was like, it's fine.
SPEAKER_00Jesus loves me everything. It's okay.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it was definitely not like that. I mean, I'm I'm saying it in like a 30-second sound bite, and so it feels like it was fast, and it wasn't. It was not it was hard and it was a lot of work. But but it didn't also just happen one day. I was working towards it because I wanted it. And that was it was actually the general conference moment that I was like, oh, I don't want to feel this way. This is this is bad. I basically hate and distrust everyone, and that's gonna be miserable for the rest of my life. And I missed who I was, and so I wanted to get back there. And there was all kinds of things I did. I mean, besides prayer and scriptures and For me, it was actually still talking to my dad. I had this this for me, it was a preparatory experience that I have seen the Lord's hand in my life time and time again in preparing me for major trauma. This was one one of the ways, and this is gonna kind of sound funny, but Hamilton the musical had recently come out, and I love Lynn Manuel Miranda already because I my favorite musical at that point was In the Heights, which he wrote. And so I knew it had come out and I hadn't really had a chance to really listen. I had heard a song or two. And uh my husband and I had a business where uh and I needed to deliver something in the West Valley, and so I had this opportunity where my husband was like, I'll uh if you he knows I love to drive and and he hates to drive. And so I he was like, Do you want to make the delivery? I'll keep the kids. And I'm like, I get essentially two hours in the car by myself. Yes, please. And so I decided to listen to the Hamilton soundtrack.
SPEAKER_02So man.
SPEAKER_01I started it as I left my driveway driveway, and the last note literally ended as I got back into my driveway. The the drive that I had was the exact timing of Hamilton. And I was like, it was it was the very next day where I was having dinner with my dad, and the last conversation I have with him, moments before he's arrested, is about Alexander Hamilton. And I'm telling him, Dad, do you realize all these things, these great things that he did, and this one decision that he makes, he had he lost so much because of it. He loses his son, he loses the presidency.
SPEAKER_00For the people who don't know, in Hamilton, Alexander Hamilton, who was probably going to be president for sure. He was beloved by the people, has this secret affair, and then he, as a way to like get ahead of it, publishes these papers and lets the world know about it and controls the story, but effectively destroys his career. Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_01It destroys his career, and his son, in trying to defend his dad's honor, duel gets into a duel and dies. Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_00And almost loses his wife.
SPEAKER_01Yep. Um you know, just all these things. But in that conversation, I actually said to my dad, but that even though it absolutely changed his life, it doesn't negate all these great things that he did because we still like our financial system is still what he built. He created the Coast Guard, which is amazing. You know, like all of these things. I'm like listing all these incredible things. He set up the treasury.
SPEAKER_00He's like Alexander's legacy was there. Yeah. But we don't know about him. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Right. And so, but but basically I was saying that the the this bad thing that he did, although there was horrible consequences that he had to face, it didn't negate all of the good that he did. Literally, last words, practically. And so when my dad was arrested and I was angry and sad, those words kept ringing in my mind. And I'm like, my dad was a really great dad. He's a great dad. He still is a good dad. And I had to remind myself that this horrible thing that he did didn't negate all the good that he did. And so I purposely kept talking to him. And, you know, there's still moments occasionally that are hard to reconcile, you know, but uh in general, I don't feel heavy anymore, and for that I am so grateful.
SPEAKER_00Thank you for sharing. I think the the only way to really teach forgiveness is to experience it, and we all get to experience it if we choose, and it's it's a miraculous thing. I think that's why we often use the word miracle and forgiveness simultaneously, because things that are forgiven, that can be forgiven, seem outside of our capabilities as as mortals.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. Absolutely. Um, and that's what's so incredible about the atonement of Jesus Christ, because I I truly believe that it's that that makes it possible. That it gives us the capacity to do, to heal, to move forward, to still feel joy even when we're feeling pain. I think that's all connected to the atonement of Jesus
Betrayal In Marriage And Choosing Healing
SPEAKER_01Christ. Um, but that experience with my dad actually became then preparatory to the next traumatic experience I had with needing to forgive somebody. And this one might feel a little bit more universal to not maybe not universal, but more common amongst listeners than parents getting arrested or parents feeling like they've betrayed who they are and what they've believed in. Um so in the aftermath of my dad's arrest, you know, I came to my husband and was like, you need to tell me now if you're struggling with pornography. Because in in talking to my dad, learning about sort of how things played out, it wasn't like he was like a perfect, you know, straight arrow, didn't ever do anything wrong, and then all of a sudden one day they makes his insane choice. It's it started for him when he was young, very young, getting into pornography so that and that getting worse and worse and worse and worse, so that when things start happening that later, it doesn't feel weird or abnormal. And I mean, I'm not excusing any behavior. Please, please know that that's not what I'm doing. But I I was able to just see the the connection with um pornography and this this journey that he made. So then approaching my husband, being like, You need to tell me now if if you're struggling with pornography. And it not that it was the first time I'd ever asked or anything, but but um in the aftermath, things came out um with my husband and and at first, you know, it feels like such a betrayal, but I had just gone through this experience with my dad where it was feeling like, okay, the good doesn't neg or the bad doesn't negate the good. And I know how it feels to when when you finally fur uh get to a place of forgiveness and and this light and this hope and and peace that can come. And I'm like, okay. And what do both of those look like? Leaving looked way harder. I had three kids, three and under at the time. And I'm like, I don't want to do this alone. And staying also is hard because that means having to put in some work and and and forgiving. And and something you had said earlier, that's kind of what made me think of of this story of when people come to you with what they're struggling with, because you were like, it could even be a spouse. We talked about children first, but spouses l let them come to you. If if your spouse is coming to you, yeah.
SPEAKER_00That's such a there's such a big difference when we think about that path of repentance.
SPEAKER_01100%.
SPEAKER_00It's you know, being caught versus someone coming. And listen, sometimes that they might be coming to you and saying, hey, there's an affair going on. Like that it I mean, it's hard in that case, I would respect to be like, well, thank you. But even then, it's just like, well, this is really hard to hear, but I'm grateful you're bringing it to me, and then hit the pause button. But even but but if your reaction is explosion, I mean in those extreme cases, you can just do the best that you can. But in any other case, if there if we can just be willing to accept and say that was the right thing to do, just acknowledging it, we're not saying I'm not hurt. We're not saying that it's okay.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00We're just but but creating that space gets Satan out of the discussion. Because if we can get fear out of that discussion from that angle, we take the reactive part of our minds out of the play, and then we can start spiritually and logically talking.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, absolutely. And and I'm not saying that it's all gonna work out and be happily ever after after that and even. And if you make the choice, I don't want to stay, okay, that's fine too. But but if you can decide now that if somebody ever comes to me, a friend, a child, a spouse, a parent, whatever, that I want to at least pause and be like, wow, okay, recognize that you're coming in humility, fear, hoping for some love, wanting to turn to God and want, you know, I don't know. It I just know that it it paves the way for healing a lot faster for all parties because it's the way the Savior reacts when people are brought to him or come to him with sin, with trials, with trauma. He his reaction is slow and peaceful and loving. Even if he's telling you, yeah, go and sin no more. Yeah, like I I don't want you to keep doing this, but he's not, what? What did you do? How could you do this? I'm so ashamed of you.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's almost like we need to make a decision early on to decide to be a safe place for people to to talk about anything with. And and that makes it easier if it's not about us. Like if a child's coming destroyed because they're struggling with pornography or they've committed a crime or whatever that might be. Just being a safe place for it to land is is like 80% of that first discussion from my experience. Yeah. And I've I've car I've carried multiple heavy discussions. I wish I'd learned this earlier that it's almost like it saves me. If if someone shares with me hard information for me to go, well, first of all, that was the right thing to do, and it means a lot to me that you told me. Thank you for telling me. It's harder when that might be offensive to me, but if I can start with that, I give space for grace for me, most of all.
SPEAKER_01Well, one of the things that's hard sometimes about learning about the atonement of Jesus Christ is that it does work and it works for everyone. And and sometimes it's hard to reconcile. Wait, but no, they've they've wronged me. They've done something horrible, they've done something way worse than me. So it works for me, but it shouldn't work for you. That's still also trying to limit the atonement of Jesus Christ. If we want the atonement to work for us, we have to be okay with it working for everyone. Yeah. Um, I mean, since this is a temple-bound podcast, I can tell you that my husband went back to the temple. I mean, he he lost some temple privilege privileges for a while, but was able to go back to the temple. We were able to go to the temple together. Because we worked through it, I so I mean, I guess I I should say, like, I I s chose to stay and work through some some things. And it made our relationship better than ever because all of a sudden now we're both being vulnerable, both turning to each other, both turning to God.
SPEAKER_00Can you double-click on that? Yeah. So because people are like, oh, she's supposed to say that. Was your relationship really better afterwards?
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. Does it mean that there weren't times that were hard again and we had to work all over again? Absolutely.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_01But that year afterwards, um even when we were in the thick of it, Brandon one time said to me, you know, what's what's gonna happen after this? When it was late nights in tears, you know, he's like, this we've never opened up this much to each other. We've never, you know, gone this deep and been this real, been this honest. And and he was feeling it more than me, because I was like, I've always been honest. But but he uh he was like, this I I didn't even realize how good this could could be because when I thought things were good already, he was like, Well, I knew they weren't because I knew my side. And then we pushed through and he's like, Oh, this is this is better, even when it's harder. And and then, you know, I was able to get there too. Just I had already learned a lot of things about pornography about how um, you know, it it wasn't about me at all. Right. That's I think one of the hardest things for for women is it feels personal and and it isn't. It's that's easier said than done.
SPEAKER_00I know it's gonna feel personal, but it's not you're empathizing that, but recognizing the disease for what it is. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And um and so because we had this this wrestle for a while, um, it really did help us to get to a way better place and a way more um genuine and vulnerable place. Uh vulnerability is what creates connection.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And and so, yeah, I mean, again, we still had hard moments. It wasn't like rainbows and butterflies forever and everything was perfect and we lived happily ever after. But um it was it was definitely, definitely was the thing that that paved the way for um just for us to be closer. Healing. And definitely for healing.
SPEAKER_00You know, I have um a great friend of mine, is uh his name is Shaden, and he is an addiction recovery specialist. If anyone's listening to this and needs help, reach out to me immediately. Uh Shaden and I were talking, and he said something to me on I was actually, I guess I wasn't talking to him, it was his podcast I was listening to, but he said something that was very profound. He said that sometimes people think the opposite of like anxiety and stress and like trauma is peace. And it's not. It's trust. Trust is what happens when we can turn ourselves to the Lord. And I think this when we talk about forgiveness, and we're gonna tie this to the temple here in a minute beautifully, but this idea that when we're going through trauma, whether it's sin or um whatever it might be, something that happens to us because of the sins of others or just life, yeah, uh learning to trust the Lord and turn to him in the atonement in that way is what then precedes the the peace there. And
Trust Before Peace Through Trauma
SPEAKER_00my favorite is um a scripture that I'm just gonna pull up here. It's in Joshua 1.8. It's a fairly famous trick scripture for some. For me, it wasn't, because I'm still learning. But in the in the Old Testament, Joshua 1.8, this is right when you know Moses dies, and there's um they've been wandering in the desert forever, and all this generation passes away that saw Moses split the Red Sea and all these things. But the kids had heard about it and they need to go into the promised land. And there's all this lack of trust that's there. And he says this in verse 9. He says, Have not I commanded thee, be strong and of good courage, be not afraid, neither thou dismayed. Dismay means um to be anxious due to something unexpected. So be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed, for the Lord thy God is with thee wherever so out wherever so uh ever thou goest. And so to to be strong and to have good courage is for us to trust that the Lord has a purpose even when these traumatic things happen. Um and I I love that you end up developing trust again with with Brandon and the love and the way that created that connection and and uh truly from the outside it's it's a miracle.
SPEAKER_01But again, preceding that, I had to build trust again with God even. And with the atonement of Jesus Christ. And I had already done that. That's part of what I mean by like I had this incredible preparatory experience before things came out with Brandon. So I already sort of had made that journey a little bit and had some tools in place and so that then when it happened, I didn't overreact. I didn't just react in anger, which had it that been the first thing, I probably would have, to be perfectly honest. Yeah. I would have felt so betrayed, so hurt.
SPEAKER_00And um And the atonement can cover that too, by the way.
SPEAKER_01100%.
SPEAKER_00Okay, by the way, is it someone who has reacted and exploded? That's even that the atonement can handle. Like that should be like a a saying is that even then the atonement can handle that.
SPEAKER_01Even then. Absolutely. So I it was just me trying to say I was so grateful that I'd had this experience. So that then when it became even more personal, I I had already learned to trust, truly trust the atonement of Jesus Christ. And so I was like, okay, okay, here we go again. Yeah. I've got to work through this and really lean into that trust right now because I don't know what's gonna happen. I don't know what's gonna happen moving forward, you know. And um I mean the Lord just keeps giving me experiences to I don't mean to say try that trust, but to grow it. To grow it. Absolutely. To to yes. I Elder President Iring gave a talk called Proved and Strengthened in Christ, and he has proved and strengthened me time and time again, but I come out feeling strengthened. I really, really do. Because now all of these experiences then were also just things that helped prepare me to for my biggest trial, and that was losing Brandon unexpectedly, right? A couple of years ago, Brandon died of a a stroke and didn't see that coming, and that was horribly heartbreaking. But because I had already had all of these experiences that had proved and strengthened me, uh it it almost felt like it wasn't as big of a trial because I trusted in the atonement of Jesus Christ and God's plan for me and his love for me so much that I I had way too much faith to fall apart and felt so much uh peace through that experience, even joy, not you know, joy that it happened.
SPEAKER_00Right, like a miracle that there was some tender joy amongst the storm.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. Absolutely. Um one of the things that we did when Brandon passed was uh thinking about doing a funeral would was like the most traumatic thing I could think of putting my kids through. Yeah. And so we had a funeral and we literally had a bounce house and we served all of Brandon's favorite foods, popsicles, chips and salsa, candy, we had art on the tables, like people, art projects that people could do because he was an artist. We gave away his record collection as like a takeaway. And and when you ask my kids about it, they're like, oh, that was so fun. They're literally talking about their dad's funeral. And when you see like video of them that day, pure, genuine joy on their face, that you really can have both. You can be experiencing pain and you can experience joy at the same time. And that's I think what the atonement of Jesus Christ makes possible. Okay, so this talk proved and strengthened in Christ by President Iring. There's a quote towards the very end that says, I bear witness that these moments, referring to moments of trial, hardship, pain, heartbreak, I bear witness that these moments are not evidence that the Lord has abandoned you. Rather, they are evidence that he loves you enough to refine and strengthen you. He is making you strong enough to carry the weight of eternal life. And I can testify of that, but but it I can testify also that it takes some work. And that's the the work that I did when my dad was arrested, is that I felt abandoned by Christ. I didn't feel his love. I was too angry to feel it. Um, my mom did something that in the moment I was annoyed with in the beginning, but she would call every single day all each of her kids, and she would insist that we share with her our miracle for the day. So in the beginning, I would be like, nothing, mom. I didn't experience miracle today. And she taught us how to see even the smallest things as God's love for us or God's hand in our life or a miracle. And so it could be a good parking spot or green lights when we were running late, or I mean, really, really little things. It could be, you know, like you saw a really cool tree or a beautiful flower, like the smallest things. But she got us into the habit of recognizing every good thing as a representation of God's love for us. And because I then got into that habit, then I see it everywhere, all the time. I'm surrounded by God's love all the time. And so I don't feel abandoned by him when I lose my husband unexpectedly. I don't feel abandoned by him when I feel betrayed. I don't feel abandoned. I I see him everywhere. And so when it is saying that, you know, it's it's not evidence that he's abandoned you. It's evidence that he loves you enough to refine and strengthen you. That was what has happened to me. I have absolutely been strengthened by the Lord. Now, this last phrase, he is making you strong enough to carry the weight of eternal life. Um that has been a phrase that I have really come to appreciate. And maybe this is going off on a tangent too far, but there is a talk in a book called At the Pulpit that you can find on the Gospel Library app. It's under church history and then women's history and then at the pulpit. And there is a talk by Francine Bunyan, it's number 43, and the talk is titled A. Latter-day Saint theology of suffering. And in it, she talks about a discussion she essentially walks in on that students are having. And this is what she says a group of BYU honor students was discussing Voltaire and the best of all possible worlds. Tell me, I said, what you consider to be the best of all possible worlds. It would be like the celestial kingdom. Well, what is that like? Well, there won't be problems like we have here. What kind of problems? Well, for one thing, everyone will be happy. There won't be any unkindness. No one there will be rejected or abused or laughed at or ignored. Oh, I said, are you suggesting that God experiences none of these things now? And then there was silence for a moment. And I'm going to pause and just like interject my own thoughts for a second. I that gutted me. I was like, oh shoot. God is rejected every day. God is abused every day. He's laughed at every day. He's ignored every day, sometimes by me. Oh no. And then to go back to her talk, in wanting to get to the celestial kingdom, these students had more awareness of traditional struggle-free utopias and of our own God and our own world. The celestial kingdom was a place to get away from suffering, not a place to understand it and address it in ways consistent with joy and love and agency. I mean, for real.
A Latter-day Saint View Of Suffering
SPEAKER_01That sent me on a path of learning more about what our doctrine actually is and not the assumptions that we make. And I and I'm sorry to burst anyone's bubble of like, oh, well, heaven's just gonna be so easy. Well, if heaven's easy, that means that we were back in the Garden of Eden and we have no knowledge. And we're not growing. We're not growing, we're not progressing at all. The entire plan hinges on agency. And I love that where it what the celestial kingdom is is a place where we understand life with joy and love. And I can tell you right now that that whole the doctrine of opposition in all things, the more pain I have experienced, the more sorrow I have experienced, the more joy I've experienced, the more love I experience. What has been carved out of my heart, the deeper it's cut out, the more deep then the weld fill in with love and joy. And so if we want to experience the most joy, it means that we've had to learn how to address pain and sorrow betrayal in ways consistent with love and joy and agency.
SPEAKER_00It's interesting because the scriptures don't say sorrow not. No. They don't say they say fear not. And I think we resist we resist pain. We don't want it. And so we we we're fearful what would happen if my spouse passes away, or when I lose my parent, or uh someone cheats on me, or my kids make a bad choice, or if we fear these things. And what is the the Lord says fear not, because he knows through the atonement that all these things, even the worst of it, can be filled with love and will be if we choose him.
SPEAKER_01But in that same scripture you're you're quoting in Doctrine Covenants, the the fear. I mean, he says fear not more than once, but that that fear not doubt that he doubt not, he says first, look unto me in every thought. How are we going to avoid the fear and the pride that prevents us from repenting and prevent us from forgiving? Look unto him in every thought. If you look for him around you, if you intentionally look for him, express gratitude for it when you see him, you will be surrounded by his love always. And you'll feel a lot more confidence in moving forward. You'll feel maybe more light and peace along your way, even at uh even if at the same time you're feeling some heartbreak.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, this has been so special. Uh I want to um I would like to uh say something and then we'll rapid fire end. I always like to end the interviews with the rapid fire questions that you have not been prepared for in any way. Okay.
Forgiving Yourself And Returning To The Temple
SPEAKER_00Okay. The first one, the first thing I just want to say when we're talking about forgiveness is how when I was in Africa and my wife and I were visiting this orphanage for young girls that were sex trafficked. And so this was a very interesting group. We're talking six months to 13-year-old girls, and there's dozens and dozens of them, and they've they were and every sort every like the most horrific thing that anyone can think of was surpassed. And what would happen was the woman who ran this orphanage, who was a mother of many, she didn't have any natural-born children of her own, which is irrelevant because she loved these women as a powerful mother. She was also a young girl trapped in those ring in those sex trafficking circles, broke free and became a lawyer. And such a powerful lawyer that the government of Kenya is fearful of her. Because when she comes in, she's standing for something righteous. She would have, as I visited these girls with my wife, these girls would stand up and tell their stories. And she would talk about forgiveness. The one thing I saw, and she said this to us, she goes, forgiveness is the key to healing. And so when we talk about recovery from a porn addiction or anything else, recovery from any s sort of anything else, we shouldn't pray to to get over it, to be help me with this or help me overcome this, because that's still about us. It's about healing me. Because I I can't I have to I can't heal me. I can look into him, but healing is a gift from him, and forgiveness is the is one of the quintessential elements of healing. And in for as someone who's experienced trauma myself, even though I didn't create the trauma, I had to forgive myself even in that those cases.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. And that's hard to do, but that you won't be able to move on if you cannot forgive yourself. And if you avoid forgiving yourself because you don't feel like you're worthy of it or that you don't deserve it, that's still, again, the twin bullies preventing your repentance, fear and pride. I don't deserve it. That's actually a prideful thing. I know that sounds like the opposite of pride. I don't deserve this. No, no, no, no. That's pride. That is. And but once you can get there, if you can learn to trust in the atonement of Jesus Christ and forgive even yourself, that's when healing will happen.
SPEAKER_00All right. This has been phenomenal. I have felt the spirit so deeply. Um so first question favorite temple?
SPEAKER_01Provo City Center. It looks like downtown Abbey inside. It's it's gorgeous, but obviously I have a few others that that are special. I was married in the Redlands Temple, so that will always have a special place in my heart. But the Provo City Center one, it was it's the building that I went to state conference in every year as a student at BYU and that they converted it into a temple is pretty special because I got to see the building before, and then now it's you know the after is even more powerful.
SPEAKER_00I love that. Um what if someone here is is really like feeling uncomfortable going into the temple because they are like not sure if they're worthy? What would you say to them?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I had a student who felt this way, and his bishop suggested that he go and just touch the outside even. Okay. Just go and touch the outside. And so he started there. Don't don't worry about going inside yet. That feels like an insurmountable mountain, might maybe to climb. Just go to the grounds. Just then next go and touch the outside or walk around and look at the flowers. Step by step, baby steps, because you can feel peace there. I I know this was supposed to be rapid fire, but um, can I tell two quick stories? My dad went, you know, he was excommunicated and um he for years and years and years after he um was released from jail would just go and sit in the parking lot in his car. And and because that's what he could do. You know, he couldn't even take the sacrament. So so being in the parking lot of the temple was was the most sacred place he could be. Then the other thing I want to tell you about is my son. When he lost his dad, he was like he questioned if there was a God, right? How can there be a God that would take a father away from a son? That I'd hear him say that over and over again. But anytime he'd go to the temple, he could not deny the peace he felt there. And so this is a kid who would feel like I don't even believe in God, and yet I'm going to the temple. He didn't necessarily feel like I should I even go? Because I don't think I believe in him. And you know, he was encouraged to go by yes, me, but also even his his priesthood leaders. And when he was there, he's like, okay, I can't deny this. So it just kept his heart open. And I know that that's actually inside, but I'm I'm just saying, take whatever baby steps that you can. Um the the Lord wants you to be in his house, in his presence as much as possible. He'll take whatever you can get.
SPEAKER_00And he will bless you accordingly with everything. You are not going to be withheld from his love.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00Uh what would you want your kids to know uh as they watch this as adults? What would you want them to know about your your feelings for the temple?
SPEAKER_01Oh my goodness. The covenants I have made in the temple are absolutely what has sustained me, because I have been endowed with the power of God in the temple. And that I don't like I don't know how to put it in words, but it is absolutely the thing that has sustained me. It's the thing that is making me capable of being a single parent and doing it all on my own. Not to mention the fact that I've been sealed in the temple, and now my kids know that my kids know that they'll see their dad again, and that he's still their dad, and that you know, that's that family connection is still there. The temple has been the greatest blessing in our family's life. Even the even in a way that I don't think my kids feel just yet. Because if they feel any love from me, any strength from me, any peace from me, that is all coming from the temple and the covenants I've made, the relationship I've built with my savior and with my heavenly parents.
Final Reminder And Closing
SPEAKER_00Katie, thank you so much for being on Temple Bound. That was a wonderful. And thank you everyone for tuning in to this incredibly special episode. Just to remind you at the end of today how important forgiveness is and how we anyone here, no matter what you've done, no matter what someone's done to you, we have the atonement to access to help us remember the most important lesson of all that we are never alone. Until next time. Wardrobe by Anne Collar. These views and opinions expressed by the host and guests are on their own and do not necessarily reflect those of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints. Thank you for joining us today as we continue learning, growing, and striving to bind our lives closer to Savior. Until next time.
